Speaker's Statement

Mr Speaker: I have a short statement to make on progress towards the establishment of an informal liaison group for the House of Commons and the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority.
	The purpose of the group will be to provide a forum in which Members of Parliament and members of the board and officials of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority can, on a consultative basis, raise matters of interest or concern.
	Following consultation with the parties in recent weeks, I have invited nine Members of the House to represent the House of Commons on this liaison group. They are the right hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown), and the hon. Members for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch), for Warrington North (Helen Jones), for Milton Keynes North (Mark Lancaster), for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh), for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson), for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) and for Broxbourne (Mr Walker).
	Members who wish to raise matters should be in touch directly with members of the liaison group.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

CABINET OFFICE

The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked-

Big Society

Graham Jones: What recent progress the big society ministerial group has made in its work.

Francis Maude: The Government have an ambitious agenda for the big society. We want to decentralise power and put it in the hands of local communities. We want to open up public services to small and medium-sized enterprises, voluntary organisations and mutuals, and support the growth of civil society organisations.
	The ministerial group, which is co-chaired by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government and myself, is helping to drive forward this agenda and has already contributed to progressing our vanguard areas, the renewed compact, the right to provide for mutuals, and our giving Green Paper.

Graham Jones: Hyndburn citizens advice bureau has seen a 50% cut in its funding and four job losses, and I think that it is a similar tale at Rossendale citizens advice bureau. I am waiting for its job losses, but it is expecting a 50% cut. The Minister should be mindful that his Government might leave the legacy of a little society. What warm words would he have for Rossendale and Hyndburn citizens advice bureaux?

Francis Maude: We urgently hope that local authorities, as they deal with the financial consequences of the budget deficit that the Labour Government left behind-when the Government were spending £4 for every £3 in revenue, having to borrow £1 out of every £4-will ensure that a disproportionate burden of those reductions does not fall on the voluntary sector. That is a matter he should take up with the local council.

Oliver Heald: Have Ministers considered how to avoid duplication in the work of existing volunteer bureaux, often supported by local councils, and the new community organisers who are being recruited by the Government?

Francis Maude: I would expect community organisers to work closely with those organisations and to ensure that there is no duplication of effort. These community organisers, many of whom already exist and do great work in communities, will not carry any kind of bureaucracy or organisational structure with them. Their job is to put people together, give support to organisations and make connections where they are not already being made.

Liam Byrne: This morning figures showed that youth unemployment has rocketed up, and this afternoon we expect the Government to confirm that they will cancel the education maintenance allowance. Without work and without study, surely we need our youth charities more than ever before, yet the National Council for Voluntary Youth Services says that three quarters are now cutting projects. Just what have the Government got against young people, and why is there such a narrow place for young people in the Government's vision of the big society?

Francis Maude: I am pretty reluctant to take lectures on this from the right hon. Gentleman, because he will know, as a prominent member of the last Government, that when his Government left office there were many more young people out of work than when they took office.

Charity Collections

Sam Gyimah: What steps he is taking to prevent fraudulent charity collections.

Francis Maude: Stealing from charities is a repulsive crime, but a growing problem, with suspected links to organised crime. It is estimated that up to £50 million a year is lost to bogus collections, which deprive charities of vital income and damage public trust and confidence in them. We are determined to take robust action against people who carry out such crimes.
	Last week the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), who has responsibility for civil society, and apologises for not being able to be here today, chaired a very positive meeting with charities, their collection partners, and the licensing and enforcement agencies to consider ways to tackle the issue. We want to review the licensing legislation and put much greater emphasis on the co-ordination of enforcement action to combat these criminals.

Sam Gyimah: I thank the Minister for his answer. What assurances can he give the House that in our efforts to clamp down on fraudulent collectors we do not create an overly burdensome system that makes it harder for volunteers, on whom many of the charities in my constituency and across the country rely, to give up their time?

Francis Maude: My hon. Friend raises an important point. The Charities Act 2006 is due to be reviewed, in the ordinary course of events, later this year, which we will do. It seems to us that the current laws are outdated; they date from many years ago, from a different world. They are not particularly effective at preventing fraudulent collections, yet they can already be very burdensome on legitimate charities. We want to reverse that to make the law easier for legitimate charities but more effective in controlling fraudulent collections.

Nigel Dodds: In taking that important matter forward, what consultation does the Minister propose to have with the devolved Administrations so that best practice might be adopted in tackling that serious issue?

Francis Maude: I am confident that the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner who has responsibility for civil society and is taking the initiative forward, will want to collaborate closely with the devolved Administrations in just the way that the right hon. Gentleman suggests.

National Citizen Service

Cathy Jamieson: What proportion of the budget of the national citizen service he expects to be spent in the 50% least disadvantaged areas of the country.

Francis Maude: Analysis by Cabinet Office officials shows that NCS pilots are taking place in more than 190 locations across England and that places are evenly distributed among the most and the least deprived areas of England. Just under half of the places are in the 50% least deprived areas and just over half are located in the 50% most deprived areas. The key criterion for selecting pilot providers was the quality of proposals, including their plans to attract a wide cross-section of 16-year-olds and to support disadvantaged young people to take part. The bidders themselves nominated areas where they wanted to deliver the 2011 pilots as part of the competitive commissioning that was completed in November.

Cathy Jamieson: I am sure that the Minister will be aware of the research published by the university of Strathclyde, since it was the Conservative party that commissioned it, which highlights the danger that the proposed NCS would in fact benefit more middle-class and well-off young people, rather than those in disadvantaged areas. What account is he taking of that research and how is he changing the programmes to deal with it?

Francis Maude: The essence of that programme is that it is designed to bring together young people from a genuine mix of backgrounds. It is not designed particularly to help disadvantaged young people. It will benefit all young people and help to create a much more cohesive society by bringing together people from all backgrounds at an important and formative stage in their lives, during the rites of passage to adulthood. The social mix is an absolutely crucial ingredient of the programme.

Jon Trickett: Is it not true that the national citizen service requires that the voluntary sector has adequate capacity to deliver additional volunteering, which is contrary to the unequivocal statement made at the last Cabinet Office questions by the Minister of State, Cabinet Office, the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin), that the sector would expand? Will the Minister now admit that that statement was untrue. The latest figures for the voluntary sector show a decline of 13,000 jobs in a single quarter. Does he agree that the House was misled and that the statement-

Mr Speaker: Order. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman meant to say "inadvertently misled".

Jon Trickett: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The House was inadvertently misled, even though the facts show what actually happened. Finally, would the Minister say that the job losses are a clear disaster for his big society aspirations?

Francis Maude: The hon. Gentleman asked in particular about the capacity of the voluntary sector in relation to the national citizen service. I can tell him that the number of interested providers massively outweighed the number of places that we were able to fund. There is huge interest in the voluntary sector in taking part in the programme. The point that my right hon. Friend the Minister was making was that our approach to public service reform will open up areas of public service delivery to the voluntary and charitable sector and to social enterprise in a way that has not been done before, for all the talk from the previous Government, and the opportunities going forward will be considerable. My right hon. Friend made the point, as we all have, that there will be a tough time immediately, and we have some steps in place to try to help over that period, but the opportunities down the track are considerable.

Behavioural Insight Team

Damian Collins: What progress his Department's behavioural insight team has made in its work.

Oliver Letwin: I am glad to be able to tell my hon. Friend that the behavioural insights team is now well established. It is beginning with work on three areas: improving the nation's health; empowering consumers and encouraging people to give money; and protecting our environment.

Damian Collins: "Nudge" author, Richard Thaler, has said that he believes that groups of friends can reduce their alcohol consumption by ordering from a bar tab rather than buying rounds of drinks. What savings from the national tab is the Minister making by applying behavioural economics at the heart of Government instead of creating yet more legislation?

Oliver Letwin: I am glad that my hon. Friend asks that extremely interesting and important question. Of course, there has to be legislation about some things, but legislation has strict limits. The Opposition should be well aware of that, as they wasted £1.1 billion on ID card legislation-a totally ineffective example of authoritarianism. They also proposed to engage in bin taxes, and the evidence is now very clear: those measures would have increased fly-tipping and burning at home and have had counter-productive effects. The comparison with the RecycleBank initiative that Windsor and Maidenhead council and others are taking up, which nudges people into successfully recycling, is very striking. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the fact that we can do- [ Interruption. ]

Mr Speaker: Order. May I just very gently say to the right hon. Gentleman, whose mellifluous tones I always enjoy-

Chris Bryant: Nudge him!

Mr Speaker: Yes, I shall try to nudge him. What we want is an answer, not an essay.

Paul Flynn: Has the insight team considered an independent think tank's judgment that the Government's health reforms are like trying to resuscitate a corpse, something that has not been done successfully since the time of Lazarus? How will the Government's reforms help the nation when they are imposing chaos on the health service?

Oliver Letwin: I do not think that the national health service is anything like a corpse at all; it is a living, breathing body that does a fantastic amount of good for our nation, and we are trying to improve it. The behavioural insight team has, as a matter of fact, been involved with the Department of Health-I was hearing about it just this morning-in thinking through ways in which we can nudge improvements in the health service, too, and try to make it more effective without imposing additional regulation on it.

Big Society

Andy Slaughter: What recent discussions he has had with the civil society organisations on the implementation of the big society initiative.

Oliver Letwin: All Cabinet Office Ministers meet civil society organisations regularly. I was present recently with the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr Maude), the Prime Minister and other members of the Government at a round-table meeting with a cross section of voluntary and community groups and their representatives. We had extremely fruitful conversations about the new opportunities opening up for the sector and the way in which we can encourage those.

Andy Slaughter: Yesterday my local Tory council announced that 22 well regarded voluntary organisations would be evicted from their home in Palingswick house, which they have been in for 25 years, to provide a site for a free school run by the self-publicist Toby Young, most of whose pupils will come from outside the borough. Will the right hon. Gentleman extend his deliberations and come to Hammersmith to sort out the broken big society there?

Oliver Letwin: I have of course heard about the Palingswick house events, but it is hugely in the interests of the hon. Gentleman's constituents that there should be a free school there, as it will improve education standards, I have no doubt. That is of course entirely a matter for the local council, not for the Government, because we believe in localism, but I understand that the council intends to find other ways to house the voluntary and community groups that are involved, and I am sure that it will do so with his help.

Harriett Baldwin: May I draw your attention to my entry in the Register of Members' Financial Interests, Mr Speaker, and then ask the Minister what the likely timetable will be for local voluntary organisations to access the big society bank?

Oliver Letwin: My hon. Friend has a distinguished record in financing voluntary and community groups, and the big society bank will make a difference to that area. The bank is a quite a complicated proposition, and we have to organise it and find the funding for it, but my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General is at work on that at the moment. Although we hope to be able to progress it at a reasonable rate, I certainly do not want to give my hon. Friend the impression that it will happen overnight, but I anticipate it being up and running in the not too distant future.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: What reassurance has the Minister given civil society organisations that the big society agenda is being driven not by marketisation principles and the desire to see the voluntary and community sectors bid for public sector contracts simply to reduce costs, but by the desire to enable genuine community empowerment?

Oliver Letwin: If the Speaker will permit a little essay, I would say two things in response to the hon. Lady's important question. First, this is not all about money, in any dimension. The Localism Bill that we are bringing before the House has a huge effect on building social capital, and it does it by empowering people to make decisions about really important things such as their neighbourhood planning. That has nothing to do with saving money and everything to do with building social capital and empowering people.
	Secondly, I fear that the hon. Lady shares the error that many of her colleagues have exhibited in thinking that the issue is one of services versus money. We are actually trying to find ways of getting more for less, and we believe that the innovation, enterprise, intelligence and social capital in the voluntary sector will enable us to do that.

Public Bodies

Ben Bradshaw: What savings have been achieved under the Government's programme of rationalisation and abolition of public bodies to date.

Gordon Banks: What assessment he has made of the effect on public expenditure of his proposals for non-departmental public bodies.

Francis Maude: The proposals for reform that I set out in the House last October are the most major change to the public bodies landscape that any Government have made in a generation. They will make a significant contribution to reducing the baseline of Government spending as part of the coalition Government's deficit reduction plan.

Ben Bradshaw: While "The King's Speech" is rightly being feted all around the world, the right hon. Gentleman's Government are abolishing the organisations here in Britain that helped to make that film happen, as part of what even the Conservative-dominated Public Administration Committee has described as a "botched" bonfire of the quangos. Given that he cannot even say how much, if anything, this is going to cost, is it not typical of what the Government are doing in so many areas-ill considered, ill thought through, rushed and damaging?

Francis Maude: Just to be clear, the purpose of these reforms is to increase accountability. The Government will not simply create incontinently new independent bodies in order to avoid Ministers having to make and defend uncomfortable decisions. Ministers should be prepared to make those decisions and defend them themselves-that is what democratic accountability is about, and that is the primary aim. However, we will save money. The changes to the public body landscape planned and announced by the previous Government, of whom the right hon. Gentleman was such a distinguished ornament, were much more minor than the changes that we are undertaking. That Government claimed that those changes would save £500 million a year; our changes are much more radical and will save a great deal more. [Official Report, 2 February 2011, Vol. 522, c. 10MC.]

Gordon Banks: I will tell the Minister what the real effects of his proposals are going to be, according to the Public Accounts Committee. There will be no savings. In my constituency, between his actions on Consumer Focus and the Scottish National party's actions on Waterwatch Scotland, we have a shambles of job losses, reduced protection and no gains. Is the Minister going to be a man, step up to the plate and do the right thing, or continually try to defy gravity?

Francis Maude: It would be quite interesting to know which of our plans for reforming quangos the hon. Gentleman disagrees with. His own party had in its manifesto a commitment to cut the number of quangos. It had such plans when it was in government, but sadly, as with so much else, it did not give effect to them. We will save money, but much more importantly, we will increase accountability, which is what this is really all about.

Charlie Elphicke: Public expenditure by quangos includes expenditure on lobbying, which is an abuse of public money. Will Ministers ban quango lobbying?

Francis Maude: The code for public bodies already purports to make it impossible for quangos to employ lobbyists from outside in order to lobby the Government. However, that code has not been effective, and considerable amounts of taxpayers' money have been spent by public bodies, frequently in order to lobby the Government for them to spend more taxpayers' money. We will make absolutely certain that the code is watertight and that that becomes impossible.

Mark Williams: One of the list of quangos to be dealt with in the Public Bodies Bill is S4C. There is genuine anxiety in Wales about the future of S4C. Although there is a debate to be had about funding, can the Minister at least assure the House of S4C's continued existence?

Francis Maude: There is no question mark at all over the continued existence of S4C, which plays a valuable part in the life of the Principality. I will convey my hon. Friend's concerns to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales. However, S4C appears in the Public Bodies Bill in the schedule to do with funding arrangements, and that has nothing to do with its continued existence.  [ Interruption. ]

Mr Speaker: Order. There are far too many private conversations taking place in the Chamber, and far too much noise.

Social Enterprises

Sheila Gilmore: What assessment he has made of the likely effects on the social enterprise sector of reductions in Government expenditure.

Tom Blenkinsop: What assessment he has made of the likely effects on the social enterprise sector of reductions in Government expenditure.

Mary Glindon: What assessment he has made of the likely effects on the social enterprise sector of reductions in Government expenditure.

Oliver Letwin: There is no doubt that the cuts that we have had to make as a result of the huge deficits that were piled up in government by the colleagues of the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) have made and, in the immediate future, will make life difficult for some voluntary and community sector bodies, contrary to the way in which I was misrepresented by the hon. Member for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett). However, we have put in place measures that will vastly increase the opportunities for voluntary and community bodies to participate in public service delivery and earn money by doing so, and we have established a £100 million transition fund.

Sheila Gilmore: Will the Minister explain to the House what discussions he has had with his Treasury colleagues about extending and reforming community interest tax relief, which many social enterprises want to happen? That might be a way to enable social enterprises to flourish, despite the reductions that are contemplated.

Oliver Letwin: Tax relief is, of course, an issue for the Chancellor of the Exchequer at Budget time, and I would not dream of trampling on his front lawn. The hon. Lady should recognise two important facts. First, charities already receive about £3 billion in tax relief, including a VAT exemption for trading activities for their main purposes and gift aid. Secondly, we are reluctant to create an unlevel playing field between social enterprises that are not charities and the private sector, because we want to ensure that there is a fair contest between the two and that social enterprises are fully involved in competing for public service delivery.

Tom Blenkinsop: I take note of the Minister's reply. In opposition, he said that the creation of a social investment bank was a priority and last July, the Government said that such a bank would be making loans by this April. We now know that that will not happen until the end of 2011. Is he frustrated by the Government's dithering?

Oliver Letwin: It is certainly true that we would like that to happen as fast as possible. We would have been much assisted in that if the previous Administration had not spent three years talking about it without setting up anything and without allocating any money to it. We have made arrangements for the bank to have some money. We hope to get more into it and to set it up in the very near future.

Mary Glindon: Given what has been said by my two colleagues and the Minister, will he explain more fully what immediate help the Government will give to the voluntary sector to help it create more social enterprises?

Oliver Letwin: I hope that the hon. Lady has already gathered that we are trying to do two things. The first is to provide immediate assistance to voluntary and community groups that have had a tough time because of the spending review. The transition fund of £100 million is open. We are waiting for the bids to be completed, and they will then be judged and money will be handed out. Secondly, we are opening a wide terrain of public service delivery functions that can be carried out by voluntary and community groups, resulting in a huge potential for them to earn.

National Citizen Service

Bridget Phillipson: What steps he is taking to ensure that young people from disadvantaged backgrounds participate in the national citizen service.

Francis Maude: One of the main aims of the national citizen service is to create a more cohesive society by mixing participants from different social backgrounds. To ensure that that happens, organisations bidding to deliver national citizen service pilots this summer were scrutinised on their plans for supporting the broadest possible range of young people to participate. A number of the organisations that were successful in bidding to run the pilots have a strong track record in working with young people from disadvantaged backgrounds and we will closely monitor the success of the pilots in working with those young people.

Bridget Phillipson: I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. Given that education maintenance allowance is being scrapped and that the Connexions service in my constituency faces huge cuts, how can disadvantaged young people in Houghton and Sunderland South be confident that they will benefit from the national citizen service?

Francis Maude: The hon. Lady will be glad to know that a number of NCS pilots are taking place in and around her constituency. The Prince's Trust is running a pilot in collaboration with local partners, including Sunderland football club, and Catch22 is running pilots in Sunderland and Washington. I hope that she will engage directly with those organisations to ensure that the widest possible range of participants is attracted to those pilots.

Big Society

Lindsay Roy: What assessment he has made of the effects on the big society initiative of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review; and if he will make a statement.

Oliver Letwin: The hon. Gentleman was a distinguished head teacher in Scotland, I believe, and if his question relates to the effects in Scotland, he should of course address it to Scottish Ministers, as we do not have responsibility in that field.
	For England, £470 million a year has been allocated to the Office for Civil Society, a considerable amount in light of the spending review. We have also allocated £100 million to the transition fund, and as I have mentioned repeatedly, there are huge new opportunities for voluntary bodies.

Lindsay Roy: I thank the Minister for his answer. Can he reassure me that ultimate responsibility for providing a safety net for the most vulnerable people in society still rests with the state?

Oliver Letwin: Of course responsibility for ensuring that people are cured, taught and protected from criminals rests with the Government and the state. The question is how that responsibility is best fulfilled. In our view, there are some areas in which things should be done by innovative and enterprising voluntary and community groups, rather than being delivered directly by public authorities.

PRIME MINISTER

The Prime Minister was asked-

Engagements

Andrew George: If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 19 January.

David Cameron: This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.

Andrew George: The NHS is facing massive reorganisation, while at the same time seeking the greatest savings in its 62-year history. Respected professional medical bodies warn about the risks to public service of giving private companies the easy pickings. Before pursuing that gamble will the Prime Minister reflect carefully, informed by clinicians and the coalition programme that we agreed last May?

David Cameron: We will listen very carefully to the professionals, but the reason for making modernisation of the NHS such a priority is simply that this country now has European levels of health spending but does not have European levels of success in our health service. Of course, what we want is a level playing field for other organisations to come into the NHS. What we will not have is what we had from Labour, which was a rigged market.

Edward Miliband: Does the Prime Minister think it is a sign of success or failure that unemployment is rising and employment is falling?

David Cameron: Of course every increase in unemployment is a matter of huge concern, and that is why we are launching the biggest back-to-work programme that this country has ever seen, the Work programme.
	There are some very disappointing figures today, particularly on youth unemployment, and I am sure we will talk about that in a moment, but there are some mixed pictures. The claimant count has gone down for the third month in a row, the number of vacancies is up and the average of the independent forecasts published today sees growth revised upwards. The biggest task for this Government, and frankly for this country, is to get to grips with the long-term structural problem of youth unemployment, which has been going up for years in our country and went up by 40% under Labour.

Edward Miliband: After that complacency, when 50,000 people have lost their job, it is no wonder they rumbled the Prime Minister in Oldham. The truth is that he is cutting too far and too fast, and British people are paying the price.
	The Prime Minister mentioned youth unemployment. It is at its highest since 1992, yet he is abolishing the future jobs fund and the new programme does not even come into force until the middle of the year. After these figures, why does he not change his mind, reinstate the future jobs fund and help create an extra 100,000 jobs this year?

David Cameron: First, I think it is a good idea to listen to the answer before reading out the next question. Let me deal specifically with the future jobs fund. We looked very carefully at it and found that it was expensive, badly targeted and did not work. We now have the figures for the future jobs fund. It was five times more expensive than some other employment programmes, it lasted for six months and, within one month, 50% of those taking part were back on benefits. Hardly any of the jobs under the future jobs fund were in the private sector. The scheme in Birmingham, for instance, had just 2% of its jobs in the private sector. Far too many were make-work jobs in the public sector, and they were not solving the problem.

Jane Ellison: This week, a parents' campaign group in Battersea moved a big step closer to starting a new free school. Their campaign is supported by Wandsworth council and enjoyed cross-party support before the general election. I hope that my right hon. Friend will join me not only in wishing the new Bolingbroke academy well but in saying to the unions and other people running a campaign of vilification against those parents that it is time to back off.

David Cameron: My hon. Friend speaks for many in supporting the opening up of our education system and saying to academies and free schools, "You are welcome to come in and provide a great education for free to children and parents in our country." I have to say that it is a very big choice for the Labour party whether it sticks with the programme of reform and opening up education, or whether it sides with the trade unions.

Chris Bryant: Leaked figures that I have managed to get hold of show-[Hon. Members: "Oh!"] Calm down. The leaked figures show that police forces in Wales must cut their numbers by 1,600 police officers and staff. The South Wales police force told me this morning that in that one force 688 officers are going to have to disappear. The Prime Minister said on 2 May last year that he would outlaw any front-line cuts. Why is he backing down on his promise?

David Cameron: I find that the best way of calming down is by reading the hon. Gentleman's poetry-I find that very instructive. All police forces are facing a difficult financial settlement. I accept that. The context for all this is the vast budget deficit that we were left and the huge mess that we have to clear up. I have the figures for the South Wales police force. Next year, it must find a 5% cut. That will take it back not to some figure of the 1980s, but to the spending it had in 2007-08. Her Majesty's inspectorate of constabulary has said that it is quite possible to make those sorts of reductions- [ Interruption. ] If the hon. Gentleman asks a question, he should have the manners to listen to the answer. The fact is that HMIC said that it is possible to achieve those reductions while not losing front-line officers. That is what needs to be delivered.

Julian Brazier: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Government's social security reform programme is the first serious attempt since Beveridge to get back to the principle that-to coin a phrase-we should be offering people a hand up and not a handout?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is entirely right. This is a very bold and radical reform that basically will mean that every single person who is on welfare will always be better off in work or always better off doing more hours of work. Even the Opposition would accept that so many reforms have simply moved the poverty trap up the income scale. We should always make it worth while for people to work harder or to work more, and that is what our reforms will do.

David Simpson: Fuel prices in Northern Ireland currently average 135p per litre and rising, forcing many motorists to go into the Republic of Ireland to fill their vehicles, which is a major loss to the British Exchequer. Because of the land border, will the Prime Minister consider introducing in Northern Ireland a rural rebate scheme similar to that in Scotland?

David Cameron: I understand the cross-border problem that the hon. Gentleman raises and that fuel smuggling between Northern Ireland and the Republic has been a real problem. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury would have heard him ask for the expansion of the scheme that was in the Budget. Obviously, we are looking hard at how we can help families and motorists with their fuel and motoring bills. However, I would say this: everyone should remember that the last four increases in fuel duty were all put through in the last Labour Budget.

Jake Berry: I know that, like me, the Prime Minister is a fan of the teaching of British history in schools. Does he think that when the political history of the past 13 years is written, it will advise pupils to borrow, borrow and borrow through the boom, or will it advise them to learn from Labour's mistakes?

David Cameron: I hope we can get into the curriculum the idea that we should fix the roof while the sun is shining. What we heard at the weekend from the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) was interesting: he has now had nine months to digest Labour's mistakes, and he has come up with the answer that they did not spend too much and they did not borrow too much, and his message to the British people is, "Vote for me and we'd do it all over again."

Edward Miliband: Can the Prime Minister guarantee that under his NHS plans hospital waiting times will not rise?

David Cameron: We want waiting times and waiting lists to come down.  [Interruption.] The whole aim of these NHS reforms is to make sure we get the value for the money we put in.  [Interruption.] I have to ask the right hon. Gentleman this: it is clear now that Labour- [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the Prime Minister. A 10-year-old constituent of mine came to observe Prime Minister's questions last week, and asked me afterwards, "Why do so many people shout their heads off?" It is rude and it should not happen.

David Cameron: I would love to know what your answer was, Mr Speaker.
	The point is this: we are putting the money in-£10.6 billion extra during this Parliament; money that, by the way, the Labour party does not support-but we want to get value for that money because, frankly, today we do not have the right outcomes for cancer and for heart disease. We want to do better. Is the right hon. Gentleman in favour of reform, or is he going to oppose it all?

Edward Miliband: I notice that the Prime Minister did not answer the question. Patients want to know something quite simple: how long will they have to wait for treatment? They all remember waiting for years under the last Conservative Government, and they know that we now have the shortest waiting times in history because of what the Labour Government did. If the Prime Minister thinks his reforms are so good, why cannot he give us a simple guarantee that waiting times will not rise?

David Cameron: Waiting times will rise if we stop putting the money into the NHS. The right hon. Gentleman's shadow Chancellor is not here today, but this is what he said about our plan to increase NHS spending by more than inflation every year: "There is no logic" or rationale to it. That is the answer: we get investment in the NHS from this coalition Government, but we would get cuts from the Labour party.

Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister cannot make a guarantee because he has abolished the guarantees. He has abolished the guarantees that Labour brought in, such as the 18-week waiting list guarantee. He is taking the "national" out of the national health service. Patients are worried, and doctors and nurses say his reforms are extremely risky and potentially disastrous. Why is he so arrogant as to think he is right and all the people who say he is wrong are wrong?

David Cameron: First, the right hon. Gentleman is simply wrong: the waiting time points he made are written into the NHS constitution and will stay under this Government. So, first of all, he is wrong. The second point is that we will not be able to get waiting times down and improve our public health in this country unless we cut bureaucracy in the NHS. That is what this is about. We are spending £1.4 billion-a one-off-to save £1.7 billion every year. That will save £5 billion by the end of this Parliament. If the right hon. Gentleman opposes the reforms, where will that money come from?

Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister has obviously not noticed that people are not convinced by his reforms. Even the GP sitting on his own Benches said this is like tossing a hand grenade into the NHS. Is not the truth that, just like on every other issue, we get broken promises from this Prime Minister? He is breaking his promise on no top-down reorganisation of the NHS; he is breaking his promise on a real-terms rise in NHS funding; he is breaking his promise for 3,000 more midwives; and he is breaking his promise to put patients first. It is the same old story: you can't trust the Tories on the NHS.

David Cameron: It is the same old feeble pre-scripted lines. The right hon. Gentleman practises them every week; I am sure they sound fantastic when they are spoken before the bathroom mirror. The facts are these: this Government are putting the money into the NHS, but the Opposition do not support that; this Government are cutting the bureaucracy in the NHS, but they do not support that; and this Government are reforming the NHS so that we get the best in Europe, but they do not support that. So this is the right hon. Gentleman's policy: no to the money, keep the bureaucracy, do not reform the NHS. I would go back to the blank sheet of paper.

Bob Russell: Prime Minister, our Government say that we want to help disabled people back to work. Two years ago, my constituent, Mr Robert Oxley, a father of four, had a serious motorcycle accident, which resulted in one leg being amputated and the other leg no longer functioning. A year later, he recovered and his firm gave him back his job, which he has been able to continue for a year through disability living allowance and Motability. Regrettably, those in charge, including callous cretins on the tribunal, have taken away his DLA and took away his Motability car on Monday, and he is now out of work-or he will be. May I ask the Prime Minister where in that story the words "fairness" and "all in it together" feature?

David Cameron: I am very happy to take up the hon. Gentleman's case. We have all seen cases in our constituencies where tribunals have come to conclusions that completely fly in the face of common sense. I am very happy to take up that case, have a look at it and see what can be done. We should do what we can to help disabled people, particularly with the mobility needs that they have. Having filled out those forms myself, I know just how soul destroying and complicated it can be and how much we need to help people who cannot get around to make sure that they do.

Tony Lloyd: The Prime Minister will be aware that my constituents in inner-city Manchester have some of the worst health and, brutally, die younger than people in other parts of the country. If he will not give a guarantee about waiting lists nationally, will he make a solemn and binding pledge to my constituents that at least in the inner cities waiting lists will not go up, either in number or in time?

David Cameron: The pledge I would make is this. As the hon. Gentleman has just revealed, we have health inequalities in our country that are as bad as those in Victorian times. Let us be frank: we have those after a decade of increased money going into the NHS and we are not getting it right. That is the reason for carrying out these reforms. If we just stay where we are, as seems now to be the policy of the Labour party, we will lag behind on cancer, we will lag behind on heart disease and his constituents will die younger than mine because we do not have a fair system. Let us reform it and sort it out.

Peter Tapsell: Did my right hon. Friend tell the Prime Minister of France last week that Britain will never permit fiscal control of its economy by the European Union?

David Cameron: The short answer is yes.

Helen Goodman: The Prime Minister has repeated his claim that the Government are putting more money into the NHS, yet the County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust has been told that it must make cuts of 16% over the next four years. Why?

David Cameron: Let me remind the hon. Lady that her own shadow Chancellor said that there is "no logic" -[Interruption.] This is an answer. He said that there is "no logic" or rationale to our policy of real-terms increases in the NHS. What we are cutting in the NHS is the bureaucracy of the NHS. Since 2002, under Labour, the primary care trusts and the strategic health authorities increased their spending on themselves-on their bureaucracy-by 120%. We can go on spending this money and not put it into patient care and better public health, but I think that that is wrong. That is why we are making these changes.

Anne Main: Severe disruptions to train services in the winter of 2009 led to David Quarmby carrying out an urgent service and severe weather audit. This winter saw massive disruption to services, with Network Rail leaving trains stranded south of the river, causing a 75% cut in peak services over Christmas for my constituents. What steps are the Government going to take to shake up Network Rail and bring about a radical improvement to our train services?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend makes a very good point and that is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport has commissioned an independent audit of how transport operations performed during the worst weather in December. We have to look at some particular issues, such as the frozen third rail that affected so many services. She is right to call to account Network Rail and the train operators. We want to make sure that they improve the service that they provide and the way in which they communicate with the public when things are not going right.

Grahame Morris: Does the Prime Minister see the conflict of interest in private health care companies, which stand to benefit most from his health care reforms, donating £750,000 to the Conservative party? Is that what he means by "We are all in it together"?

David Cameron: Let me tell the hon. Gentleman the big difference between the health reforms that we are proposing and what the Labour Government did. The Labour Government rigged the market in favour of a few hand-picked independent private sector suppliers. That is what they did; what we are saying is that there should be a level playing field. Before the hon. Gentleman complains about it, he should have a look at his own party's manifesto-and I quote it almost directly- which said that the private sector should be allowed into the NHS alongside the NHS. Those are the words from the Labour manifesto, written by his right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband).

Damian Collins: Will Tony Blair's correspondence with George Bush be published before Mr Blair's next appearance in front of the Iraq inquiry?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend will know that there is a long-standing convention, quite rightly, that a serving Prime Minister does not and cannot order the release of papers that refer to a previous Prime Minister. That is why the Cabinet Secretary will be looking at this issue, which is a matter for him. Anyone unhappy with the conclusions is clearly able to write to Tony Blair to make their views known. For my own part, I hope this inquiry can be as open and clear as possible so that we get to the bottom of the very important issues it is looking at.

Lindsay Roy: As the Prime Minister will be aware, I spent most of my working life in schools and colleges, so I have overwhelming evidence of the benefits of the education maintenance allowance. It brings benefits to teenagers from modest backgrounds in terms of their employability skills and in raising their achievement. May I urge the Prime Minister to go back to the position when he pledged to support EMA, so that we can support our economy as we move forward?

David Cameron: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the problem is that we want more people to stay on in school, but we have to look at the working of the current system. The Labour Government commissioned research and found that 90% of those on EMA would have attended school in any event. We also have to look at the context in which EMA was introduced into this country. Let me cite what the hon. Gentleman's parliamentary colleague, the former Prime Minister said at the time:
	"We will fund this major advance in educational opportunity from savings that we have made from our success in reducing... debt."-[ Official Report, 15 July 2002; Vol. 389, c. 29.]
	Is it any surprise that we are having to look at these spending programmes and work out how to get better value for money to clear up the mess we have been left?

Louise Bagshawe: My constituents in Corby and East Northamptonshire are still suffering today from the disastrous top-down housing targets imposed by the Labour Government. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that the Localism Bill will restore planning power to local people in Corby and east Northamptonshire?

David Cameron: I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. The failure of top-down housing targets was that they not only created huge unease around the country but did not result in the building of very many houses, as house building fell to such a low level. Our more local version will make sure that where councils go ahead and build houses, they will benefit from doing so.

Tom Clarke: While we all welcome the comparative calm during the referendum in southern Sudan, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that hundreds of thousands of southerners are seeking to move back home from the north? Will he ensure that they have the maximum protection as well as the maximum of humanitarian aid?

David Cameron: I think the right hon. Gentleman is quite right to highlight what a relative success the process has been so far, given some of the warnings made about the dangers of the referendum and the process being followed. Part of the reason for that-I pay tribute to previous Governments as well-is that the countries that care about the Sudan and want this to work well have put in a huge amount of effort. I include my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, who chaired the key meeting on the subject at the United Nations. I will certainly listen to what was said, and we should make sure that the movement of people is carried out in the best way possible.

Lee Scott: Does my right hon. Friend agree that as part of the NHS reforms we must tackle straight away the fact that senior management in both NHS trusts and primary care trusts are being rewarded for failure by being promoted or given large pay-offs and that it should stop now?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is entirely right. There have been too many occasions on which a manager in the NHS has failed in one PCT or strategic health authority and gone on and failed in another. One answer to this issue is the greater transparency that we are bringing to all such arrangements so that people can see how much they are paid, what the results are and how successful they were before they go on and land another well-paid job.

Naomi Long: The Government announced this week that they will not extend to Northern Ireland the UK rules on political party donations at this time. Will the Prime Minister clarify what was the greatest driver for that decision? Was it the security concerns or the lobbying of local parties that simply do not want to be exposed to transparency?

David Cameron: I will look carefully at what the hon. Lady says. The security situation in Northern Ireland is a very difficult and sensitive one at the moment and the Government are giving it a huge amount of time and attention to try to help the devolved authorities in everything they are doing to combat the terrorist threat, but in terms of the specific question she asks perhaps I can write to her and give her a considered response.

Tony Baldry: My right hon. Friend will be aware that there have been some pretty disgraceful delaying and filibustering tactics at the other end of the corridor in an attempt to delay the introduction of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill. Will he assure the House that the Government will make no concessions to those who filibuster?

David Cameron: My hon. Friend is entirely right: we should not make concessions to a bunch, mainly of former MPs, who are supposed to be supporting the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), who wants the AV referendum to take place. I have to ask him how, if he is so in favour of the referendum and thinks it so important and so wants to stand on a platform, he has lost control of his party?

Nick Smith: Owens Road Services, a haulier from south Wales working in Blaenau Gwent, has a fleet of 270 lorries. Last year, it bought nearly 11 million litres of fuel, paying more than £6 million in fuel duty, and it has shouldered a 14% increase in fuel bills in the past year. What is the Prime Minister going to do about high fuel bills?

David Cameron: Let me make two points to the hon. Gentleman. First, there is the point that the fuel duty increases were all part of the previous Labour Government's Budget.  [ Interruption. ] It is no good hon. Members shaking their heads; they all supported the Budget and voted for it at the time. However, there is another answer, which is that we should look at Britain's hauliers and see how we can help them with a discount for those that are British-based. We are looking into that and at what can be done, because for many years British hauliers have been disadvantaged against their continental counterparts and we would like to put that right.

Gordon Birtwistle: Does the Prime Minister agree that what has happened in Burnley with the closure of our accident and emergency unit and the transfer of a children's ward to Blackburn will not happen when people power takes over, with our GPs, to change the national health service?

David Cameron: The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. Under the previous Government and the previous arrangements, hospital closures and decisions were driven by bureaucrats in Whitehall, strategic health authorities and PCTs, and they did not depend on decisions that patients and GPs were making about the structure of health services in this country. That is the big change we are making. In future, the success of hospitals and health centres will depend on the choices that people make with their GP; that is the big change and it will drive a better health service.

Tom Blenkinsop: The north-east illegal moneylending team has a record of catching loan sharks and setting up credit unions in Easterside, Middlesbrough to encourage saving and safe lending. Worryingly, after all that hard work, the Department for Communities and Local Government website has signposted vulnerable people to loan companies offering rates of up to 2,689% APR. In light of that, will the Prime Minister please meet me to review his decision on the closure of that team?

David Cameron: I am very happy to arrange a meeting between the hon. Gentleman and the DCLG to discuss this issue. I think there is unity across the House that we should try to encourage credit unions and try to get people out of the hands of loan sharks. That is our policy and that is what we want to do, so I shall happily arrange that meeting.

John Whittingdale: I very much welcome my right hon. Friend's comments earlier about the Localism Bill. Can he confirm that its provisions will apply to applications for onshore wind farms such as those on the Dengie peninsula in my constituency? One of them has already been described as harmful to the local environment, and it is deeply unpopular with the local community.

David Cameron: I can give my hon. Friend a positive answer. The Localism Bill addresses that issue. As well as doing that, it is important that where local communities are affected by things such as onshore wind, they should make sure that they benefit from those developments. The Localism Bill brings a whole new approach that will much better settle this difficult debate than what has been done until now.

Clive Efford: Today, there is an order before Parliament to proscribe the TTP-Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan-the Pakistan Taliban. Just one week into the term of office of the Prime Minister's predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), the right hon. Gentleman demanded to know why my right hon. Friend had not proscribed Hizb ut-Tahrir. Just eight months into the Prime Minister's term of office, can he explain to the House why he has not fulfilled his manifesto commitment?

David Cameron: We could put it another way round: why did the last Government have 13 years, yet the Pakistani Taliban were never banned? It has taken us eight months to do what they failed to do in 12 years.

Several hon. Members: rose-

Mr Speaker: Order. We now have a statement. I ask right hon. and hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly, so that we can hear the Minister.

Sustainable Transport

Norman Baker: With your permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement to accompany the publication today of the coalition Government's White Paper on local transport, and the simultaneous publication of bidding guidance to accompany our new local sustainable transport fund. Both documents are available to colleagues in the Vote Office and have been placed in the Library of the House.
	This Government's vision is for a transport system that helps create growth in the economy, and tackles climate change by cutting our carbon emissions. The launch of the White Paper, and the associated local sustainable transport fund, represents a significant step towards meeting those two key Government objectives.
	In both the Budget and the spending review, the Chancellor pledged to make the tough choices that will allow us to maintain investment in new and existing infrastructure to support a growing economy, while eliminating the structural deficit over the lifetime of the Parliament. The spending review reflected transport's vital role in this. I am pleased that we were able to secure significant investment to allow us to go ahead with important transport initiatives. The investment we have committed to in rail, low-carbon vehicles and public and sustainable transport reflects the determination to secure growth while cutting carbon.
	In the medium term, our transport decarbonisation strategy centres around the progressive electrification of the passenger car fleet, supported by policies to increase generation capacity and decarbonise the grid. By also prioritising spending on key rail projects such as high-speed rail and rail electrification, we will be providing travellers with attractive new options instead of the plane and the car.
	In the immediate term, addressing shorter, local trips offers huge potential in helping to grow the economy and tackle climate change. Shorter trips are important- two thirds of all journeys are less than five miles. Walking, cycling and public transport are all real, greener alternatives for such trips. What is more, we know that people who travel to the shops on foot, by bicycle or by public transport can spend more per head than those who travel by car, and research shows that improvements to the public realm can increase turnover in the high street by 5% to 15%. Increased sustainable travel also helps tackle congestion, which is a drag on business causing excess delays in urban areas at a cost of around £11 billion per annum.
	Let us not forget the further benefits that follow a shift to more sustainable transport-benefits to the air we breathe and to our levels of fitness, and the money in our pockets as well. Investment in sustainable transport helps make our towns and cities healthier and more attractive places to live, work and shop.
	The White Paper sets out how we can encourage the uptake of more sustainable modes at local level, and the unprecedented £560 million we have allocated in our new local sustainable transport fund will support that. Our commitment to helping local authorities with this vital agenda is reaffirmed by the amount of money we are making available. The local sustainable transport fund forms part of a wider picture of more streamlined and simplified funding for local authorities. That will give local authorities more power and flexibility to meet local transport needs.
	Across Government, we have demonstrated our commitment to ending top-down decision making and the tendency in Whitehall to develop one-size-fits-all solutions that ignore the specific needs and behaviour patterns of local communities. The Government have already taken significant steps to hand back power to local communities, including replacing regional development agencies with local enterprise partnerships, giving communities a much greater say over planning decisions and ending the top-down imposition of housing targets. Today's White Paper is about extending the decentralisation of power to local transport and putting into context what that means for local authorities.
	We are particularly keen to receive bids for the local sustainable transport fund from local authorities that are in partnership with the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector, and that have the support of local businesses. We believe that by encouraging bids in this way, we will be able to capture innovative solutions to local transport needs in all areas-rural and urban. An example I often cite is the Cuckmere community bus in my constituency. Individual residents in the Cuckmere valley have come together to run regular and frequent bus services that take people in rural areas to their nearest towns. The services are provided entirely by volunteers. Wheels to Work schemes provide transport to people who are unable to access training, employment or education due to a lack of suitable public or private transport. The schemes can therefore particularly benefit people living in isolated rural communities, and they can play an important role in helping people to come off benefits and regain their independence. Those real examples are happening right now, and we want to enable similar stories to unfold in other areas across the country.
	In addition, we recognise that some initiatives benefit from a single national approach. They include the provision of £11 million of funding for Bikeability cycle training next year to allow 275,000 10 to 11-year-olds to benefit from on-road cycle training. There is a commitment to support Bikeability for the duration of the Parliament, which will allow as many children as possible to undertake high-quality cycle training.
	We will also improve end-to-end journeys by encouraging transport operators, and those involved in promoting cycling and car clubs or sharing, to work together to provide better information and integrate tickets and timetables. We are delivering with operators and public sector bodies the infrastructure to enable most local public transport journeys to be undertaken using smart ticketing by December 2014. We will work with the transport industry to support the development of e-purses and other technology related to smart ticketing, and we will support the infrastructure to make that happen. The way in which transport investment decisions are made will be reviewed to ensure that the carbon implications are fully recognised. Responsibility for local roads classification will be transferred to local authorities to give them the flexibility to determine the status of their roads. We will also be setting out in a strategic framework for road safety by spring 2011 how to ensure that Britain's roads remain the world's safest. Traffic signs policy will be modernised to provide more flexibility and reduced costs and bureaucracy for local authorities to enable them to develop innovative traffic management solutions.
	We want to build a transport system that is an engine for economic growth, and also one that is greener-one that creates growth and cuts carbon. By improving the links that move goods and people around, by encouraging people to travel sustainably, and by targeting investment in new projects that promote green growth, we can help to build the balanced, dynamic low-carbon economy that is essential for our future prosperity. The White Paper and the associated local sustainable transport fund demonstrate our commitment to taking that agenda forward, and I commend them to the House.

Maria Eagle: I thank the Minister for forwarding me a copy of his statement earlier today. However, I am afraid that he has given us nothing more than a re-heated and re-packaged announcement to cover his embarrassment at the devastating impact that the speed and scale of his Government's cuts is having on local transport throughout the country. Despite all his warm words about the importance of local transport, this Tory-led Government of whom he is a hostage are decimating bus services, putting rail travel out of the price range of many and crippling local government's ability to deliver vital local transport improvements.
	The hon. Gentleman talks of his "new" £560 million local sustainable transport fund, yet he knows full well that the fund, which he announced in the comprehensive spending review, is a sticking plaster over the gaping hole left by his massive 28% cut to local government transport spending. Will he confirm that while he is front-loading the cuts, he is providing only £30 million of capital spending and £50 million of revenue spending for the next financial year, which in effect means that local government transport was cut by £309 million this year, and he is giving back £80 million next year? It is no wonder that he told  The Daily Telegraph:
	"I don't like George Osborne very much".
	For all the Under-Secretary's good intentions and personal commitment to sustainable transport, is he not operating with one hand tied behind his back-doubtless tied there by the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government? Now we know who he was talking about when he told  The Daily Telegraph:
	"I mean, there are Tories who are quite good and there are Tories who are, you know, beyond the pale, and, you know, you have to just deal with the cards you've got".
	The truth is that the Under-Secretary has had a bad hand to play-a Budget settlement that will mean a significant reversal of the improvements in sustainable local transport schemes that were made during Labour's period in office.
	Does the Under-Secretary have any idea about what is actually happening to public transport around the country as a result of his policies? Does he realise that the 20% cut to the bus service operator grant, combined with changes to the concessionary fares scheme, is making a devastating impact on local bus services? With fuel prices at record levels, does he understand the impact of cutting the fuel cost subsidy on enabling bus operators to sustain unprofitable services?
	Has the hon. Gentleman seen today's reports that councils throughout the country are withdrawing services? Half the subsidised services are being axed in Somerset; more than 70 rural services are being scrapped or reduced in Durham; nearly 30 services are threatened in North Yorkshire; and 60 are being reviewed in Suffolk, while Kent has warned that all unprofitable routes will be axed. Does he have any idea of the social consequences of those cuts?
	Has the Under-Secretary seen this week's report from the Association of Colleges, which shows that 94% of colleges believe that the combination of scrapping education maintenance allowance and cutting local transport means that students will be unable to get to college and therefore unable to complete their courses? It is all well and good the Government's telling people to get on the bus to find work, but they have to be able to afford to do that, and the buses have to be there. The impact of the cuts will be especially felt by those who are out of work and looking for a job, two thirds of whom do not have a driving licence or access to a car.
	Does the Under-Secretary agree that all his good intentions are undermined when he prices people off the roads and off local public transport? Is he aware that his Department's figures show that, without the bus service operator grant, there could be a 6.5% increase in fares and consequently a 6.7% fall in bus usage? He should be aware of it, because he signed off the parliamentary answer that gave the figures.
	Does the hon. Gentleman realise that, by hiking rail fares by more than 30% across the spending review period, he is driving people off the railways and back on to the roads?  [Interruption.] Instead of whispering in the Under-Secretary's ear, the Secretary of State could have delivered the statement himself . Before the election, the Under-Secretary was going around the country, promising to cut rail fares. Now he is overseeing record increases. Does he understand that people will find his claims about investment in rail hollow at best when he has scaled back the planned electrification, cut the number of new carriages, and delayed the completion of major vital schemes, such as Thameslink and Crossrail? Does he accept that the consequence of hiking the costs of using public transport will force people back on to the roads, where they will be hit again by rising fuel prices, thanks to the increase in VAT on fuel to 20%? He is adding to the pressures faced by families who are already feeling the squeeze.
	The Tory-led Government, of whom the Under-Secretary appears to be a frustrated and reluctant member, are reducing the amount of funding for local government transport schemes by more than a quarter. They claim to be green, to care about sustainability, to want to support public transport and to believe in localism, yet they give back with one hand to local communities today a fraction of what they have already taken away with the other. For all the warm words today and everything positive in the White Paper, we are seeing the localising not of transport decisions but of the blame for the Government's cuts to local transport.

Norman Baker: I am afraid that the hon. Lady was her usual churlish self. There was not a single practical suggestion on how we might improve sustainable transport, and not a single admission that the deficit has caused any of the problems with which we are dealing. If I may say so, having had plenty of experience in opposition, the skill of opposition is not to oppose everything indiscriminately, 100%; it is about making positive suggestions as well as identifying problems. I am afraid that she has to learn a bit about opposition, as well as about other matters, perhaps, to do with how her party operates. She ought to be taking fewer lessons from Tom Baldwin about what language to use, and should concentrate more on transport matters, rather than on spin, as still happens with the Opposition, it seems.
	The fact of the matter is that £560 million is a very substantial sum of money to invest in this area. We did so because we were interested in creating growth and cutting carbon-two matters that appear to be of little interest to the hon. Lady, judging by her peroration. I looked at the figures for sustainable transport grants for 2010-11-money spent in the Labour Government's last year on cycling, school travel, smart ticketing and so on. It came to £120 million for that year. Next year, 2012, we will spend £140 million on the local sustainable transport fund, and that will rise to £180 million by 2014-15.
	I point out that the previous Government's spending was characterised by wasting money on reports, tick-box exercises and setting targets that were never met. For example, £150 million was spent on the travelling to school initiative, and the final evaluation report, which I shall publish next week, shows it to be very poor value for money indeed, in terms of changing behaviour in any shape or form. Our approach is different: set a clear vision to empower local authorities, and provide them with the funds to get on with the job that they need to do.
	As for the matters that the hon. Lady actually raised, if I can discern any in her diatribe, the bus service operators grant, to which she referred, is not being cut this year; it will be reduced from the following year, and the reduction is less than the average reduction in revenue budgets across Government. She will know that the Confederation of Passenger Transport, which represents most bus companies, said that it thought, by and large, that the reduction could be absorbed without fares having to rise. She also pays no attention to the fact that the vast majority of bus services are commercially driven, so what councils have or do not have is irrelevant to the majority of the bus network in this country.
	The hon. Lady paid no attention to the very good initiatives taking place, some of which I referred to in my statement. An example is the Wheels to Work initiative, which is busy giving people the opportunity to get back into work on a lower-carbon means of transport, helping the economy to grow, helping people out of unemployment, and helping to reduce carbon emissions at the same time.
	I am very sorry that the hon. Lady chose to be so negative when the proposals were put forward, because if she listens to some of her party's Back Benchers, she might find that there are matters in the statement that are welcomed by Members in all sections of the House.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Mr Speaker: Order. A great many right hon. and hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye, but I remind the House that there is a heavily subscribed Opposition day debate to follow, and there is therefore a premium on time, so brevity from Back Bencher and Front Bencher alike is essential if large numbers of colleagues are not to be disappointed.

Jason McCartney: I welcome the Minister's statement, particularly the details of the local sustainable transport fund. Three Holme Valley councillors wrote to him last week, telling him that First Bus has recently cut local bus services in Holme Valley, leaving many people without much-needed rural bus transport. Will he meet those councillors, some local people and me to see how the announcement today can help to give them the services that they need in their local area?

Norman Baker: I am grateful for that positive intervention from my hon. Friend, who recognises that working together-working with other Members of Parliament and with local councils-can help. Of course, I would be happy to meet him and his councillors.

Louise Ellman: I welcome the emphasis on sustainable local transport, but could the Minister explain how local needs will be met, as the fund partially replaces major cuts in local transport funding, where decisions are made locally, with centralised decision making in a competitive system?

Norman Baker: The Government are entitled to set high-level strategy targets to help create growth and cut carbon, but beyond that, we are actually making powers available to local councils to a greater extent than hitherto. For example, the Department for Transport operated 26 funding streams for transport under the previous Government; that has been reduced to four. In respect of the local sustainable transport fund, to which the hon. Lady refers, I can assure her that the assessment process will be very light touch, with a view to getting local authorities' money out there as soon as possible to help with their plans. Provided that they can demonstrate that they will create growth and cut carbon, we will be happy with what they put forward.

Martin Horwood: I am sure that my hon. Friend will join me in congratulating British companies such as Transport Design International, which designs cheap, green, popular, ultra-light trams. Does he, like me, regret that most of its designs are currently going overseas, and hope that some of the very welcome funds that he has announced today could be used to support innovative ultra-light tram systems at local level?

Norman Baker: As my hon. Friend knows, the Government support light rail. In the spending review we announced extensions to the schemes in Nottingham and the Midland Metro. We are always open to ideas that will benefit people by providing extra public transport and which reduce carbon emissions. With my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, who has responsibility for rail, we are discussing, for example, issues related to tram-trains. We are keen to take that agenda forward.

Chi Onwurah: In Newcastle, bus transport is an essential and valued part of our economic infrastructure, but in the evening many of those services stop, leaving the vulnerable, particularly women, unable to use public transport at night and forcing many to use cars, which is unsustainable. The White Paper and the cuts to the subsidy for bus transport do nothing to address the issue. The Minister spoke about volunteers. Can he outline how he expects volunteers to play a role in giving Newcastle evening bus transport?

Norman Baker: The hon. Lady raises a valid point about safety on buses and the accessibility of those bus services in the evening. Depending on the ingenuity of the local city council and others, it is perfectly possible that measures could be taken to improve that. For example, end-to-end journeys, joined-up transport, through-ticketing and the safety of bus stations could all, in theory, be eligible for grants under the fund, so I encourage her to talk to her local council and see whether she can come up with a scheme for submission.

Mike Freer: Yesterday I visited Menorah primary school in my constituency. Its green travel plan is being hampered by the lack of electric charging points. Can the Minister confirm that the local council could bid for transport fund moneys to introduce the infrastructure that would allow an expansion of electric charging points?

Norman Baker: We are open to bids and we have no preconceptions about what those bids would include. Providing that they demonstrate that they create growth and cut carbon, we are open to suggestions. As the hon. Gentleman knows, under this Government the Secretary of State has been personally involved in moving on plug-in places. We see that as a key element of the future of transport in our country.

Caroline Lucas: Public transport in this country remains more expensive than almost anywhere else in Europe, yet the service that people get is one of the worst. What would the Minister tell my constituents in Brighton, Pavilion who struggle daily with poor, expensive and crowded rail services?

Norman Baker: I am familiar with Brighton, as the hon. Lady knows. I would say that the public transport system in her constituency is extremely good. Brighton and Hove Bus and Coach Company is one of the best bus companies in the country, and Southern has invested recently in new rolling stock and is one of the better train companies. The frequency of services will be further enhanced by the Thameslink programme and the Government are committed to 2,100 new railway carriages, so people in Brighton and on the south coast can have confidence that the public transport system is serving them well.

Iain Stewart: I welcome my hon. Friend's statement. It is timely for my constituency, as Milton Keynes council is consulting on local transport needs and priorities in the coming years. To ensure that that consultation is properly aligned with the new fund, can he say a little more about its time scale and the greater flexibility that local authorities will have?

Norman Baker: The guidance for the bidding process has also been released today and is available to Members in the Vote Office. Essentially, there are two bidding rounds for smaller scale projects of up to £5 million and another bidding round for larger projects of up to £50 million. The objective is to make them as quick and as easy as possible, subject to securing value for money and making sure that the money can be released as a consequence of that. The shorter projects will be progressed more quickly than the larger projects, but the time scale has been made available as part of the guidance.

Ian Austin: I was interested to hear in the statement about the funding for Bikeability, but members of British Cycling, like myself, will want to know whether the Minister will take this opportunity to update the out-of-date transport regulations that are hampering the growth of the sport on the road.

Norman Baker: I am happy to say that the Government are fully committed to cycling. It features in the coalition agreement and the hon. Gentleman will have noticed the reference to £11 million for Bikeability this year and a further guarantee for the rest of the Parliament, for example. In respect of the specific issue that the hon. Gentleman raises about racing on the road, I am happy to tell him that I had a meeting earlier this week with officials and key interested parties, and we are close to moving that forward to a satisfactory solution.

Adrian Sanders: As the Minister knows, cycle and bus usage tends not to follow local government boundaries. Will the guidance in the scheme encourage cross-border bids, such as to turn the A380 between Newton Abbot and Torquay into a cycle-bus expressway once the Kingskerswell bypass has been built?

Norman Baker: I congratulate my hon. Friend on managing to introduce his proposed bypass into the question. The answer to the question about the guidance is yes, it expressly allows councils to work together across boundaries. Indeed, it encourages them to do so.

Kerry McCarthy: Happy birthday, Mr Speaker. Has the Minister had an opportunity to discuss with his Liberal Democrat colleagues on Bristol city council the contribution that the Severn Beach railway line makes towards the sustainable local transport system? May I urge him to do all he can to work with them to ensure the survival of the Severn Beach line?

Norman Baker: I am happy to tell the hon. Lady that I shall be in Bristol tomorrow, so I will have an opportunity to take that forward then.

Jesse Norman: Happy birthday, Mr Speaker. I welcome the focus on and the new funding for sustainable local transport that the Minister described. There is a particular issue of transport for people in rural areas, such as mine in Herefordshire. Will the Minister meet a delegation from Herefordshire to discuss this important local issue?

Norman Baker: My right hon. Friend the Minister of State and I shall be happy to meet a delegation. We are conscious of the need to recognise the importance of rural areas. That is why the White Paper today and the associated guidance gives indications to rural counties in particular how they might be successful in the bidding process.

Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the House, but I have probably had enough birthday wishes. I am very thankful.

Jim Shannon: I welcome the Government's commitment to the reduction in carbon emissions. That is good news. In better weather conditions it would be more attractive to walk or to use a bicycle. The Minister outlined a number of incentives to draw people away from cars and encourage them to use alternative transport, but at a time when fuel prices are coming to their highest level and transport charges are rising and are set to rise again, is there not a balance to be struck between the carrot and the stick approach? Can he tell us how he proposes to get people out of cars and on to alternative transport?

Norman Baker: I should make it plain that the local transport White Paper relates to England only, but it is reasonable to draw attention to that matter. One of the ways that we encourage use of public transport is making it more attractive by making it safer and more convenient. We are doing a lot of work, for example, on through-ticketing and on smart ticketing, as all the evidence suggests that if people have confidence that they can leave their front door and arrive at their destination without worrying about the last two miles, they are more likely to use public transport for the majority of the journey. A great deal of work is being done on that. Making public transport attractive is a key to achieving modal shift.

Mr Speaker: I call Richard Harrington.

Richard Harrington: What an excellent way for you to remember this special day, Mr Speaker, by calling me to ask a question.
	I commend the Minister for the statement. In my constituency, we have two schemes that are before the Department. As far as I can see, they are entirely compatible with creating growth and cutting carbon through their benefits to the local economy and taking people off the roads. Those are the Croxley rail link project and the Watford junction project. May we have a decision on them as soon as possible? I hope that my hon. Friend will be favourably inclined to grant them.

Norman Baker: I congratulate my hon. Friend on managing to link that to the statement. I can assure him that the matters to which he refers are under active consideration. A timetable has been published and we will shortly be able to give him and others in the House detailed information about the decisions to be taken.

Ronnie Campbell: Has the Minister had time to look at the Blyth and Tyne rail link that runs through my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery)? The line is used principally by Alcan and for coal. It is a shame that it is not used for transport in our area of south-east Northumberland. Will the Minister look into that?

Norman Baker: We are always happy to look at potential public transport improvements. I am not familiar with that line myself, but my right hon. Friend the Minister of State who has responsibility for rail is sitting next to me and has carefully noted the hon. Gentleman's comments.

Stephen Williams: Penblwydd hapus, Mr. Speaker.
	I am sure that when the Minister visits Bristol tomorrow he will receive a warm welcome from people from all parties. If he is travelling by train to Bristol Temple Meads, he may be disturbed by the cost of the bus service into the city. Does he agree that to address the huge potential for shorter journeys that he mentions in his statement we need seriously to address the cost of a single bus journey from a main railway station?

Norman Baker: I absolutely agree with that. From memory, the train company that operates in Bristol is the same one that operates the bus service, and it is in the commercial interests of FirstGroup to ensure that the bus is attractively priced to encourage a through journey by rail and bus, rather than encouraging people to drive the whole way, which may be the consequence of that particular pricing policy.

Clive Efford: One issue that neither the Government nor the Mayor of London's office can continue to ignore is the daily congestion at the Blackwall tunnel and the need for a third crossing to relieve that congestion. If there is the slightest incident, the whole of east London and south-east London comes to a standstill. Will the Minister ensure that in every future discussion between the Mayor's office and his Department, that issue is on the agenda, because we cannot continue with this logjam in our capital city?

Norman Baker: I understand that additional capacity is being considered by the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), but the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that London falls outside the White Paper's remit.

Sarah Wollaston: May I join the hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) in recommending the expressway along Kingskerswell for a bus and cycle route? I welcome the local sustainable transport fund. Will the Minister meet a delegation from Littlehempston and Totnes, to consider not just how funding is crucial in advancing cycling schemes, but also some of the unnecessary roadblocks that such schemes come up against?

Norman Baker: It is often the roadblocks, as my hon. Friend puts it, the pinch points, that cause disruption to the transport system, congestion and unnecessary carbon emissions. It is certainly important to deal with such issues, and the fund that I am announcing today is well designed to do that. Of course, I will be happy to meet her and her colleagues.

Ann Coffey: Will the Minister be a little more specific and say in what way his policy will improve bus services in Greater Manchester and make them more responsive to my constituents' needs?

Norman Baker: This is not a top-down approach. We are setting high-level targets for local authorities to create growth and cut carbon, and we are leaving it to them to come up with the solutions that fit their particular patch. The answer for Manchester will be very different from the answer for Bristol, so it is not for me or other Ministers to say what is best for Manchester. Our job is to set the vision and to provide the money and let local councils get on with it. If Manchester wants to come up with something that helps bus services in that way, it is welcome to do so.

Julian Sturdy: I, too, welcome the statement. One of the key elements to encouraging economic growth in York is cutting traffic congestion, and the Minister recently visited York to look at the park and ride sites across the city. Will he outline in further detail how the new fund will encourage such projects?

Norman Baker: It certainly can encourage such projects. As I said in my previous answer, it is up to the local council to come up with a scheme that meets those objectives. I very much hope that my hon. Friend will pursue those objectives, which seem quite sensible, with the local council, and suggest that it submits a bid.

Julie Hilling: As the Minister will know, three times as much money is spent on public transport in the south as in the north. Will this programme do anything to redress that balance?

Norman Baker: Obviously, the population of the south is different from that in the north, which is one factor in question. We are keen to ensure that we achieve the two targets of creating growth and cutting carbon, and we also recognise that there are particular areas where unemployment is a problem, which we are keen to help as far as possible, so we will bear those factors in mind when bids come in. We certainly want to see a reasonable balance to the money that is distributed.

Andrew Bingham: My hon. Friend has already agreed to visit the High Peak to discuss the Mottram-Tintwistle bypass-a visit that we are all looking forward to with great anticipation. While in the High Peak, will he meet officials from our local authorities to discuss the best way in which they can take advantage of the new local sustainable transport fund?

Norman Baker: I fear that my diary is filling up, but yes, I will be happy to do so.

Sheila Gilmore: I welcome the commitment to continue funding cycle training for young people, but one of the things that puts families and children off cycling is the lack of cycle routes, both on-road and off-road, that are properly safeguarded. Will the Minister consider prioritising that from central funding to ensure that the training leads to actual cycling?

Norman Baker: It is certainly true that in this country 43% of people have a bicycle and only 2% of journeys are made by bike, which suggests that there are bars to people cycling which they wish to overcome, having bought the bicycle in the first place. People often feel safer off-road than they do on-road, so the creation of cycle paths can be particularly useful. I am thinking of safe routes to school in particular, and I hope that local authorities will want to consider such schemes when submitting bids to the Department. As well as the money for Bikeability for this year, in 2011-12 we are also providing £30 million from the centre for links to schools, for bike club, bike it, and walking to school initiatives.

John Pugh: What impact, if any, does today's announcement have on the development of small-scale rail extensions, such as the Burscough curves? We have hoped for very little and got very little.

Norman Baker: The fund is not designed to reinstate railway schemes, because they are of a size and nature that it could not sustain. As I said earlier, we are keen to see what we can do to improve and enhance the rail network, where it makes commercial sense to do so. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State has noted the point made.

Philip Hollobone: School traffic enhances peak-time congestion during term time. The United States seems to run a successful yellow school bus scheme. Why cannot we have something similar here?

Norman Baker: I am advised that the Secretary of State's constituency has a yellow bus scheme, which perhaps he has been helpful in introducing. The school run is certainly one of the major reasons for congestion and delays in the morning, and it is an important point to look at. That could in theory be something that the fund that I have announced today could address, but I am not against having a further look at the yellow bus scheme on a national basis-although these matters are best decided locally, as my hon. Friend would accept.

Julian Huppert: I congratulate my hon. Friend on the excellent statement, which contains many good things. Issues such as local powers over signage, for which I have campaigned for many years, the funding for Bikeability and a real valuation of carbon are much to be welcomed. Will he do any more to encourage councils to really make it easier for people to cycle to work, either by providing infrastructure, or by providing extra information such as the CycleStreets website set up by my constituents.

Norman Baker: We are doing more to make information on cycle routes available on the Transport Direct journey planner. That is now being rolled out across the country, giving information on a progressive basis, to make that available to people who want to cycle safely and are not necessarily familiar with the routes. It is plain from the guidance that one way of cutting carbon and creating growth is to invest in cycling, so I hope that local councils will bear that in mind when submitting bids.

Justin Tomlinson: Thamesdown Transport bus company in my constituency runs an excellent service, but does the Minister agree that local bus companies need to do more localised, estate by estate marketing, to explain the benefits and services on offer?

Norman Baker: I certainly agree that some bus companies are better at drumming up business for themselves than others. We have some excellent bus companies around the country, including the one I mentioned earlier in response to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), Brighton and Hove Bus and Coach Company. Other bus companies do not do so well, but frankly, they are missing a trick in not capitalising on the market that is there for them.

Julian Smith: The local Little Red Bus company provides vital community bus services across North Yorkshire. May I press the Minister a little further on how the fund will be targeted on the most rural areas of our country?

Norman Baker: It is up to local councils to decide which bids they submit and what is included in those bids. The pattern of bus services varies considerably across the country, and I believe that I am right in saying that North Yorkshire has been subject to some cuts which have not been undertaken elsewhere, which suggests that the council has made that decision itself. We have also recently amended the Department's guidance on concessionary fares to reflect the importance of rural routes and long-distance routes in rural areas, and that should help bus companies as well.

Jane Ellison: I welcome the Minister's statement. Certainly London's future depends very much on sustainable low-carbon travel. Back on the subject of bikes, although I realise that is a devolved matter, there is much to be learned from the Mayor of London's popular cycle hire scheme, and I hope that the Minister is working with that team to make sure those lessons can be passed on to other towns and cities that might want to go down a similar path.

Norman Baker: I very much welcome the innovation that is taking place in London with the cycle hire scheme. Being based in a capital city, that scheme now has some traction and coverage elsewhere in the country, and I very much hope that other towns and cities will feel that it is worth emulating.

Bob Russell: I sincerely hope that in due course the coalition Government will be able to reinstate some of the tram and light railway schemes that were axed by the previous utopian Labour Government, and perhaps add a few new ones. They are quite commonplace on the continent. I welcome the Minister's statement, particularly the coalition Government's commitment to support Bikeability cycle training for the duration of this Parliament. With that in mind, would he like to come to cycle town Colchester to see how cycling is being promoted?

Norman Baker: I shall be happy to attend the event in Colchester to which the hon. Gentleman refers after I have been to Mottram and Tintwistle and everywhere else I am going in the High Peak area in the near future. On light rail, we have already committed to enhancements and extensions to the tram light rail system in the Midland Metro area and in Nottingham, despite the difficult financial situation that we inherited from the party now in opposition. My hon. Friend will also be interested to know that I have initiated a review of light rail costs, which is one of the first things I did upon my appointment, and it is due to report soon. The objective is to get the costs of light rail down so that we can have more light rail in future.

Mr Speaker: I must thank the Minister and all colleagues, whose succinctness enabled everyone who wanted to take part to have the chance to do so.

Points of Order

Hilary Benn: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We are just about to start an extremely important debate on the scrapping of education maintenance allowances. By my calculation, five Members will now be unable to take part in that debate because we have just had a statement that could perfectly well have been made yesterday. Have you been notified by the Minister's office as to why it was necessary to have the statement on an Opposition day, and do you not agree that it is highly desirable that statements should not be made on those days unless absolutely necessary?

Mr Speaker: The short answer to the right hon. Gentleman's challenge is no. It is, of course, for the Government to decide whether and when to put on a statement, but my answer stands. I hope that is helpful to the House.

Gareth Thomas: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Some of the brightest and best potential teachers risk being lost to our schools because universities do not know whether they will have places for them. In short, that is because universities that train future teachers do not know how many places for teacher training they will have, five months after the Teacher Development Agency should have told them. Is there anything you can do to end the confusion between the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department for Education on that issue, perhaps by securing a written statement on the matter?

Mr Speaker: The matter can of course be raised at business questions tomorrow. The Government will have heard what the hon. Gentleman has said. If any clarification is required, that is a matter for the Government. My concern now is to protect Opposition time.

BILL PRESENTED
	 — 
	Health and Social Care Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
	Mr Secretary Lansley, supported by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Vince Cable, Secretary Michael Gove, Secretary Eric Pickles, Danny Alexander, Mr Simon Burns and Paul Burstow, presented a Bill to establish and make provision about a National Health Service Commissioning Board and commissioning consortia and to make other provision about the National Health Service in England; to make provision about public health in the United Kingdom; to make provision about regulating health and adult social care services; to make provision about public involvement in health and social care matters, scrutiny of health matters by local authorities and co-operation between local authorities and commissioners of health care services; to make provision about regulating health and social care workers; to establish and make provision about a National Institute for Health and Care Excellence; to establish and make provision about a Health and Social Care Information Centre and to make other provision about information relating to health or social care matters; to abolish certain public bodies involved in health or social care; to make other provision about health care; and for connected purposes.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 132) with explanatory notes (Bill 132-EN).

Consumer Protection (Postal Marketing)

Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)

Caroline Nokes: I beg to move,
	That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision relating to the regulation of postal marketing; and for connected purposes.
	I am grateful for the opportunity to raise such an important but sometimes under-reported matter. Every day, criminals worldwide send millions of unsolicited, mass-marketed letters to UK residents. As defined by the Office of Fair Trading, a mass-marketed scam is:
	"A misleading or deceptive business practice where you receive an unsolicited or uninvited contact and false promises are made to con you out of your money".
	Although I appreciate that many such contacts might arrive by e-mail or telephone, I wish to focus today on those that use Royal Mail to deliver their message to potential victims. Consumers losing money in that way is a significant problem in the UK. Those activities are often targeted specifically at vulnerable or disadvantaged consumers, such as the elderly and those already in debt, and those individuals can suffer disproportionate levels of harm as a result. Although anyone can fall for a scam, the elderly and vulnerable are more likely to be targeted and to become repeat victims.
	Hon. and right hon. Members might be aware of the Nigerian 419 scam, which involves a letter asking the recipients to help in removing a substantial sum of money from Africa using their bank account, for which they will receive a smaller amount in return for their assistance. Inevitably, the money never arrives and the recipient will find that their bank account has been used fraudulently and, in some cases, that their identity has been stolen and cloned. That is one of the most popular and recognisable scams, but others involve fake lotteries, even clairvoyants and fictitious prize draws. After replying to the first "taster" letter, the victim's details will be sold to other criminal networks and the deluge of mailings will begin.
	Across the UK, postal workers deliver more than 100 pieces of mail every day to some victims, but there is no comprehensive system in place to report such activity. Nearly half of the UK adult population has been targeted in that way, and while it is easy for us to advise them to delete the e-mail, hang up the telephone or simply tear up the mailing, more than 3 million adults-6.5% of the UK population-will be taken in, losing a total of £3.5 billion every year. Should one have the misfortune to become a victim once, it will only get worse. Chronic victims have their names added to a so-called "suckers" list and will find the number of mailings increase exponentially as their details are sold on again and again.
	We should not underestimate the effect that such mailings have. Scam mail is designed to shut down the normal thought process and dazzle the mind. Chronic victims can focus only on the fictitious prize, not on the money that they are sending to claim it. Many will not understand modern technology and how it allows mass mail to be easily produced, despite looking like important and personally addressed correspondence. They might fall out with their families, who are desperate to help their relatives stop what can become an addiction but cannot make them understand that sending yet more money will not make a fictitious prize appear. It is also worth noting that the Mailing Preference Service can help only if victims themselves come to understand that there is a problem and register with it. One of the biggest difficulties is in helping the victim realise that the offers are not genuine.
	Scam mail should not be confused with perfectly legitimate direct marketing. Indeed, I seek to assure Members that I have no desire to prevent either legitimate businesses from communicating with potential customers, or Members from using direct mail to communicate with constituents. It is a complex area, because in seeking to afford greater protection to vulnerable constituents, I do not wish to advocate measures that are excessive and cross the line between consumer protection and civil liberty.
	Currently the principal protection comes from the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 and the Fraud Act 2006. The former contains both criminal offences and the option to take injunctive action using the Enterprise Act 2002. Both can be used with a degree of success to deal with scams originating in the UK, but normally only once they are in full operation and vulnerable people have already suffered. Those originating in the European Union can be tackled using cross-border injunctive action procedures under the 2002 Act, but that is time-consuming, costly and rarely used. When scams originate from outside the EU, it is down to the authorities in that country to take action against the perpetrators. The level of co-operation will obviously vary from country to country and is fraught with difficulty. I have met Hampshire trading standards, which has been proactive in tackling the problem- [Interruption.]

Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the hon. Lady. It is only courteous to allow the hon. Lady to be heard with a degree of quiet and respect.

Caroline Nokes: Hampshire trading standards has made some constructive suggestions on the changes that it thinks would be possible. The police are also well aware of how and where scam mail enters the country, but they are currently unable to stop it. As I have mentioned, those who know best how to identify victims are postal workers. Many know their rounds and residents extremely well and can quickly identify when patterns of mass-marketed mail deliveries change and increase. Consequently, Hampshire trading standards is asking for measures to be introduced to enable the police, customs officers or the National Fraud Authority to identify and intercept scam mail when it enters the country, and to allow Royal Mail to disclose the details of potential victims to their local trading standards service, so that support can be offered to those financially abused and vulnerable people. One significant difficulty faced by Royal Mail is that passing on consumer details in that way contravenes the Data Protection Act 1998. As I mentioned earlier, there might also be a conflict with human rights legislation, but even though it is a difficult process, it does not mean that we should not try.
	The proposal to allow the police or other enforcement officers to intercept mail is a very difficult one, requiring changes to both the Postal Services Act 2000 and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. Under current law, the police need to apply to the Secretary of State for a warrant under RIPA and the Police Act 1997 in order to intercept and open a postal packet lawfully in the course of its transmission.
	I do not suggest for one moment that there should be a blanket power to intercept mail without a warrant, but such mail is easy to identify, the same victims are being targeted hundreds and hundreds of times over and it ought not to be impossible to introduce appropriate safeguards against breaches of human rights, controlled using the RIPA authorisation process at a sufficiently high level, while ensuring that the tests of necessity and proportionality are satisfied.
	There is some disagreement between trading standards authorities and the Royal Mail about whether the disclosure of victims' details is permitted under section 29 of the 1998 Act. There is no disagreement about whether postal workers are best placed to identify the victims. Indeed, they want to help. It might be appropriate, therefore, to introduce an amendment to the Postal Services Act 2000 to provide a legal gateway for the release of such information.
	In a trial in Hampshire, the Royal Mail has worked closely with Hampshire trading standards to identify potential victims and to introduce a card that postmen and women can put through the doors of those who they believe are being targeted, encouraging them to contact trading standards and to seek assistance. Of 44 cards delivered, however, only five victims came forward, suggesting that many people are not being given the support to tackle the problem that they face.
	When I visited trading standards, I heard horrendous tales of victims' houses, stuffed full of scam mail, with many thousands of pieces of paper stacked up in their living rooms; relatives in despair because they could not help their loved ones understand that the offers and promises were not genuine; and examples of Hampshire residents having lost more than £100,000.
	This is a timely proposal. Next month is the Office of Fair Trading's scam awareness month, which seeks to highlight and tackle the extent of that fraudulent activity. This proposal represents a proportionate approach and recognises the need to support the victims of such activities, who have suffered considerable financial loss and distress. I commend it to the House.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 Ordered,
	That Caroline Nokes, Lorraine Fullbrook, Simon Hart, Caroline Dinenage, Simon Kirby, Justin Tomlinson, Andrew Bingham, Nick de Bois, Jack Lopresti, Rebecca Harris and Mike Weatherley present the Bill.
	Caroline Nokes accordingly presented the Bill.
	 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday  17 June , and to be printed (Bill  134 ).

Opposition Day
	 — 
	[9th allotted day]

Education Maintenance Allowance

Mr Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister.

Andy Burnham: I beg to move,
	That this House believes that disadvantaged young people should gain greater access to further and higher education; recognises the valuable role that the education maintenance allowance (EMA) has played in supporting young people from less well-off backgrounds to participate and succeed in education; further recognises how EMA has supported choice for students in post-16 education, allowing them to travel to the best institution for their studies, which is of particular importance in rural areas; further notes that EMA is used by the majority of recipients to fund travel to college, as well as books and equipment, and allows recipients to focus on their studies rather than taking a part-time job; notes that EMA has been retained in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; further notes research from the Institute for Fiscal Studies stating that EMA costs are completely offset by its benefits in raising participation; further notes the inquiry into educational access announced by the Education Select Committee; and calls on the Government to rethink its decision on EMA, retaining practical support to improve access to, interest in and participation in further and higher education.
	Over the past decade, we have debated the funding of higher education on many occasions. Today, we rightly focus on an equally, if not more, important prior question: whether hundreds of thousands of young people from less well-off backgrounds are to stay in education long enough to have a realistic dream of going to university.
	To know what is at risk, we must look at how far we have come. Twenty-five years ago, the staying-on rate in England was 47%; throughout Merseyside, where I left school in 1986, the figure was even lower; and today it is 82%. Those figures tell an incredible story of human and social progress from the mid-1980s to today. A deep-rooted culture in some communities whereby employment at 16 years old was the norm, not education, has begun to be broken.
	Students and families who in the past might well have felt that education was not for the likes of them now see it as a viable route, and in the past 10 years the education maintenance allowance has played an important part in that progress. It has sent out an empowering message of hope-that we can dare to dream, whoever we are and wherever we come from. It was one of the best policies of our Government, and I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) who brought it in.
	Sustaining that progress is something that must be worked at; instead, it is about to be thrown into reverse. In the real world, the debate about tuition fees is already changing views on university, but for the least well-off the full impact becomes clear only when it is set alongside the abolition of EMA. To those young people, it feels as though we have a Government who are stacking the odds against them-a Government who talked about social mobility in their early days but have now launched an all-out attack on the aspirations of those facing the biggest obstacles in life. They see a Government who are kicking away the ladder of opportunity. Today, the House has an opportunity to change that message and to make Ministers change course.
	Before we get into the detail, however, I want the House to focus on the 650,000 young people who receive EMA. They have a strong sense that many Members do not have any idea what their lives are like.

Michael Gove: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that every single one of those 650,000 recipients should receive exactly the same amount of money that they currently receive, or does he believe that there is any scope for saving and better targeting?

Andy Burnham: The right hon. Gentleman used to believe in EMA, because he stood right where I am standing now and told the House that he would keep it-no, that he would build on it. So it is pretty desperate-

Michael Gove: Answer the question.

Andy Burnham: I shall come to the right hon. Gentleman's question, but a little more humility might serve him well during the course of this debate.
	Those young people feel that Members here-

Michael Gove: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Andy Burnham: I shall not give way; I am sorry. Those young people feel that Members, and indeed that the right hon. Gentleman, have no real idea of what their lives are like.
	Some 80% of recipients come from homes where the household income is less than £20,800 a year, and many live difficult lives. Many are part of larger families and go without the basics during the average week, because they know that anything they take off their parents deprives younger brothers or sisters. Many others are young carers who face some of the toughest circumstances imaginable-like the one whom I met, caring for both parents, at Lambeth college-and try desperately to keep their own hopes alive of a better future while supporting loved ones on meagre resources. Some are young parents who might have missed out on an education and want a second chance, like the young mum from Gateshead who came to our hearing here in Westminster. Some have special needs and disabilities, like Daniel in my constituency, who is on the autistic spectrum. I helped him to find appropriate supported accommodation when he was in his early teenage years, and his grandmother told me at the weekend that EMA had been a vital part of his transition from residential care to mainstream college-vital in helping him to learn the everyday skills of managing his life.

Christopher Pincher: The right hon. Gentleman says that there are 650,000 or so EMA claimants, but he must also know that only about 12% of those people-66,000-say that they would not go into A-level education if they did not have it. EMA costs £564 million. Does he not think there are better and less expensive ways of targeting money on the kids who really need the help?  [ Interruption. ]

Mr Speaker: Order. Members are in a very excitable state today. I know that the matter arouses great passions, but we must have some semblance of decorum in the debate. I also remind colleagues that interventions should be brief.

Andy Burnham: The hon. Gentleman is talking about 78,000 young lives-those of the people the Government say would not stay in education were there to be no EMA.
	Let me come to the heart of the Government's misunderstanding of this issue. They talk only about participation, but for the others-the Secretary of State does not seem to understand this-EMA provides the chance to fulfil themselves in education because it means that they can devote themselves to their studies.

Pete Wishart: The right hon. Gentleman is building a very powerful case for the defence and protection of EMA. Will he take this opportunity to congratulate the Scottish National party Government in Scotland on retaining EMA and ensuring that we are fulfilling our pledge to the most vulnerable and poorest students in Scotland?

Andy Burnham: My knowledge of Scottish politics is okay, but I think I am right in telling the hon. Gentleman that it was the Labour Administration who brought in the education maintenance allowance in Scotland, so I warn him off that subject.
	I have detailed the lives of some of the young people I have met in recent weeks who are receiving EMA because it is important that the House focus its mind on those young people before we get much further into the debate. I want to clear up one myth at the beginning. EMA is overwhelmingly used to provide the basics to support education-travel, books, equipment and food.

Helen Jones: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Lib Dem-Tory run Warrington borough council recently passed a motion asking the Government to think again on tuition fees and EMA? In their letter to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Liberal leader and the Tory deputy leader said that the removal of EMA would cause real hardship. If the Government's own allies do not support them, how can they go ahead with this?

Andy Burnham: I am aware of that, as I represent a neighbouring authority area. It shows that some Liberal Democrats at local level have more guts than some of their colleagues in this place, because they are prepared to say what is right and what is wrong and to stand up for the young people in their area who they know will have their dreams shattered if this help is taken away from them.

Andrea Leadsom: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is entirely possible that an alternative, more targeted approach to providing support for young people might provide a better solution while still meeting the needs of deficit reduction?

Andy Burnham: The Government talk of an alternative scheme, but it is a tenth of the size of EMA, which they have closed to new applicants. They have never made a statement to Parliament or set out any details of that alternative scheme. It has taken Labour Members to bring those Ministers here to account for themselves this afternoon, and that is quite disgraceful. We do not have an alternative to judge EMA against, and EMA is a scheme that works.

Paul Maynard: rose -

Mark Tami: rose -

Margot James: rose -

Andy Burnham: I will make further progress before giving way.
	EMA is one of the few practical policies that has directly supported social mobility and equality of opportunity, so today I will set out a comprehensive case for its retention-the educational case, the social case, the economic case and the democratic case. The Government wanted to close down EMA quietly. They have closed the scheme to new applicants. They have not begun to replace it, as their amendment claims. We have called this debate because EMA has worked and is worth fighting for.

Margot James: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that the enhanced learner support fund, which is the Government's proposed replacement for EMA, will help many of the hard cases with which he illustrated the earlier part of his speech? Some 90% of students are telling us that they do not need EMA and will continue with their studies without it. If he does not accept that figure, what would he accept as the dead-weight figure?

Andy Burnham: The hon. Lady has just shown how hopelessly out of touch Government Members are. Is she telling me that nine out of 10 young people in her constituency who get EMA are saying they do not need it? If so, she has been speaking to some very different young people-although I am glad that she has at least been speaking to them, unlike those on her Front Bench. She needs to answer this question. The Government are proposing a scheme that is a tenth-

Graham Stuart: Answer the question.

Andy Burnham: I am about to do that. The Government are proposing a scheme that is a tenth of the size of the previous one, so a fair assumption is that it will help one in 10 of the people who are getting help today. How is that compatible with the full participation in education of all 16 to 18-year-olds, to which the Government amendment refers?
	I have never set my face against changes or savings to the EMA scheme. I proposed a change last year-that of giving young people between 16 and 18 the choice of unlimited free travel or EMA. Today I say this to the Secretary of State: I am prepared to discuss changes while keeping the principle of a national weekly payment scheme to support young people in education, but I am not prepared to see a successful scheme, which brings a huge range of social benefits, dismantled and replaced with a residual scheme a fraction of the size. He will have to work very hard to convince us that a scheme a tenth of the size will, in the words of his amendment, improve
	"access to, enthusiasm for and participation in further and higher education."
	How can it possibly do that?

Ian Austin: I met students at Dudley college, 78% of whom receive EMA. More than 90% of them told me that they would be unable to continue their education if EMA was withdrawn. They are not using it for luxuries but for their books, bus fare and lunch. In particular, those on vocational courses who are studying construction, catering, hairdressing and so on need to buy uniforms and equipment. That is what they are spending it on, and if it is withdrawn they will not be able to continue their education.

Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend represents a constituency with one of the highest take-up rates of EMA in the country, and he is absolutely right. Some of the sneering comments about recipients of EMA show a complete failure to understand what their lives are like and underestimate the determination of those young people to make a success of themselves and to get skills that will stand them in good stead throughout the rest of their lives.

Paul Maynard: rose -

Caroline Lucas: rose- l

Neil Carmichael: rose -

Andy Burnham: I will give way in a moment.
	The Government's answer is, "We are raising the school leaving age to 18." What kind of answer is that? Do they really think they can simply mandate that young people will have to stay on and then provide no practical support to make it work? Perhaps that is why the Chairman of the Select Committee on Education said yesterday that he thought the removal of EMA would be damaging. The Government have a lot of convincing to do as regards senior voices on their own side of the House.

Mark Tami: Will my right hon. Friend take on board what the Labour-led Welsh Assembly Government have done in keeping the £30 higher level because they recognise just how important this is for younger people?

Andy Burnham: As I said, 80% of people get the £30 higher level. I also said that I am not opposed to talking to the Secretary of State about changes. However, if he is to fulfil his goal of keeping young people in education, he will have to talk about a scheme on a much bigger scale than he is proposing, and he will have to do that today.
	Let me set out, first, the educational case for EMA. EMA has had a positive impact on participation in post-16 education: that is accepted by all. The Government's figures suggest that EMA makes all the difference for 78,000 young people. However, as we enter 2011, the financial outlook for many families is changing for the worse. Calculations about the affordability of staying on will have to be redone when the loss of EMA is set alongside changes to other benefits and wages. New research released yesterday by the University and College Lecturers Union suggested that seven in 10 EMA recipients will drop out of education if EMA is taken away.

Graham Stuart: I regret the removal of EMA and the necessity to remove it, which was caused by an orgy of overspending by the Administration of whom the right hon. Gentleman was a part. A diet of cold, hard decisions now has to be taken by Ministers, and I have some sympathy with them. Choices have to be made, such as between providing nursery education for two-year-olds in the poorest areas or retaining EMA. The right hon. Gentleman accepts that there can be changes to EMA. Is there any reason why a slimmed-down version, such as that proposed by the Government, with constructive input from all sides, cannot deliver for the most needy and minimise the negative impacts?

Andy Burnham: The hon. Gentleman is having it both ways. He started by saying that he regrets the removal of EMA, before going on to make his attack. I will make two points to him. First, he said that EMA was essentially unaffordable. Why then does the Institute for Fiscal Studies say that the costs of EMA are "completely offset" by the wider benefits that it brings? He might want to reflect on that point.
	Secondly, why did the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State promise young people that they would keep EMA? More than that, why did the Minister of State, Department for Education, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), stand at the Dispatch Box after the general election and say that EMA would be retained? Why did they do that if it is now such a bad idea? Will he answer that?

Graham Stuart: On that particular point, following our joint interview yesterday, I looked up the Prime Minister's interview on Cameron Direct. He expressed some concerns and talked about the mixed messages that he had received from students on EMA. He said that the Conservative party had no plans to remove EMA. That is not a matter of pure semantics. There was no promise, and the right hon. Gentleman should not put out an untruth about the Prime Minister on this subject.

Andy Burnham: We will leave those kinds of points to Back Benchers; we do not expect them from the Chair of the Select Committee.
	The fundamental point that the Government are missing is that participation is only part- [ Interruption. ] The hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) does not have to put his hand up-he can just stand up. Participation is only part of the story; EMA helps students to succeed once they arrive at college. It stands to reason that young people do better if they can afford the books or equipment that support the course. As many young people have told me, EMA means that they do not have to take a part-time job, so they can focus all their energy and attention on their studies. College after college reports that EMA improves attendance, helps people to stay the course, reduces the drop-out rate and, in the end, brings a higher rate of achievement.

Andy Slaughter: The infamous Cameron Direct meeting that has been raised took place in Hammersmith on 6 January last year. Sadly, I was not at the meeting because I was handing out leaflets outside, but this morning I spoke to the person who asked the relevant question. The Prime Minister said:
	"We've looked at Educational Maintenance Allowances...no we don't have any plans to get rid of them."
	Where does my right hon. Friend think the Government now stand with their credibility on this issue?

Andy Burnham: I think that it is very difficult. The Government's access to education adviser, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), and I were at an open meeting last week in the Commons. A young woman from Cornwall said that she had been at a meeting where the Prime Minister had made a personal commitment that he would keep education maintenance allowance. The Government have some very hard questions to ask themselves this week. Now that the voters of Oldham have told them what they think about broken promises, the Government need to reflect on whether they will carry on in such an arrogant and high-handed manner, thinking it fine to say one thing to young people before the election and change the script afterwards. I am afraid that they will lose those young people for the rest of their lives if they do not change course.

Caroline Lucas: rose-

Joan Walley: rose-

Andy Burnham: I will give way to the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and then to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley).

Caroline Lucas: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Does he agree that it is entirely unacceptable that the Government still have not done a full equality impact assessment of this policy? If they had, they might be rather less cavalier about the devastating implications of scrapping EMA.

Andy Burnham: The hon. Lady makes a point of such importance that it must be addressed by the Secretary of State. In going about his business, he is wiping away important initiatives that work and are providing real opportunity for young people, with no assessment of the damage that the policies will do and no real understanding of how they might set back social mobility and equality in our country. The Government seem to have dispensed with some of the norms of government that we took seriously, such as equality impact assessments and consultations on the major changes to educational provision. Instead, they promised to keep EMA, and then simply pull the plug when it suits them. It is not good enough.

Joan Walley: I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend for giving way. Education maintenance allowance was piloted in Stoke-on-Trent and other cities, because we needed to give additional help to students, such as those who have come down from Burslem and Tunstall today to make the point that they need that additional money. Our staying-on rates have improved from 56.3% to 80.5%. Will my right hon. Friend ask the Secretary of State how it can be that people who currently receive EMA will not get that money, when people in the areas of deprivation that we represent need it for their travel costs and everything else? If they do not get it, they will not be in higher education, they will not get jobs, and there will be no solution to youth unemployment.

Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend brings me back to the point that I was making: EMA is not just about participation, as the Government say, but about helping people to make the best of themselves when they are in education and bringing out their full potential. The Government's one-sided argument about a 90% dead-weight cost fails to acknowledge that it helps young people with one of the biggest challenges in life-to shine academically. It is very hard to put a value on that. It might open doors that would otherwise have remained closed.
	Crucially, EMA supports the important principle of student choice for all in post-16 education. It means that the best sixth-form colleges, which are often some distance away, particularly in rural areas, are within the reach of young people. In most places, they do not get help with travel and transport costs, so EMA means that the doors of those fantastic institutions are opened to young people from ordinary working-class backgrounds.

Paul Maynard: It is kind of the right hon. Gentleman to give way, I am sure. I listened carefully to the powerful case studies of people he has met over recent weeks. I am concerned, however, that he might be out of touch with some of his constituents, and that he does not fully understand the needs of those with complex needs. Is he seriously arguing that a capped payment of £30 a week will fully meet the needs of the people he described? In that case, why does he not support a discretionary learner support fund that would allow individual schools to tailor provision to the needs of their students? Why is he so scared of that?

Lindsay Hoyle: Order. We must have shorter interventions, because many Members want to speak.

Andy Burnham: All I can say is that I do not think the hon. Gentleman was listening. I said that EMA makes life possible, and makes the calculations that young people have to do to stay in education that bit more doable. Is he seriously arguing that taking it from those young people will help them to make a success of their lives and circumstances? I find that hard to believe.
	The vast majority of EMA is spent on travel, as a survey for the Association of Colleges confirmed this week. It states that
	"94% of Colleges believe that the abolition of the EMA will affect students' ability to travel to and from College."
	The survey also suggests that some students may be at risk of not being able to follow the college course of their choice due to the cost or availability of transport. That goes to the heart of student choice in education. If students do not have the ability to travel, they cannot get on to the courses that they want to study. The Secretary of State needs to come up with a convincing answer to that.
	I want the Secretary of State also to think about the effect of the change on the aspirations of young people who are still in secondary school. I want him to reflect on what a young woman from my constituency told me this week-that her 15-year-old brother had already given up at school because, without EMA, he could not see any way that he would be able to go to Wigan and Leigh college to study the motor engineering course that he had planned to do. Is there not a real risk that taking the lifeline of EMA away from young people will lower the aspirations of children in secondary school? Better participation, attendance, retention and results, supporting choice and keeping hope alive for all kids-surely it all adds up to a compelling educational case for keeping EMA.

Neil Carmichael: rose-

Elizabeth Truss: rose-

Andy Burnham: I give way to the hon. Lady.

Elizabeth Truss: Is not the No. 1 factor in education teacher quality, which the right hon. Gentleman has not mentioned? The UK has one of the worst records of having qualified teachers for low-income pupils. Why did his Government not do anything about that when they were in power?

Andy Burnham: We did plenty of things to improve the quality of teaching, including through Teach First. I spoke about giving all young people the chance to get into the best sixth-form colleges in the country, so that they can access good teaching. Would the hon. Lady care to explain how, under her party's plans, those young people will carry on being able to benefit from the very best teaching and get the best opportunities in life? I do not think she can do so.

Paul Farrelly: EMA was being piloted when my right hon. Friend and I joined the House, and it has been a real achievement in the 10 years since. Some 1,700 students at Newcastle-under-Lyme college benefit from it, and it has raised staying-on rates. Where is the fairness in removing that income from those students and their households? Is it not the case that the impact of that will be felt not in the likes of Surrey Heath but in Bermondsey, Sheffield, Leigh, Manchester, Newcastle-under-Lyme and Stoke-on-Trent?

Andy Burnham: It will be felt keenly in such places. Combined with the trebling of tuition fees, my worry is that it will have a depressing effect on the aspirations of young people in the former industrial and inner-city communities that we worked so hard to lift during our time in government. That is why today's debate goes to the heart of why I and many of my hon. Friends came into politics. We care passionately about people's opportunities in those areas, and we are not prepared to see the ladder kicked away from under young people in the way that the Government propose.
	The evidence that I have given on the educational benefits of EMA demolishes the claim that it has no benefit to society beyond persuading 10% of students to stay on. Until recently, I was at a loss to understand how Ministers could make that one-sided argument and use such selective facts to back up their decision, but maybe I have stumbled on the answer. Last week, I came across a parliamentary question answered by the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), asking how many further education and sixth-form colleges the Secretary of State had visited since he was appointed in May. I shall share with the House the revealing answer:
	"The Secretary of State has made no such visits since this date."-[ Official Report, 12 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 342W.]
	The Secretary of State was quick to get to his feet a little earlier, and I trust that he will rise again now to correct what surely must have been an inaccurate answer.

Michael Gove: I certainly will. All those who saw me at Farnborough sixth-form college, when I had the privilege of opening the John Guy building, will know of my great commitment to that superb college, at which so many of my students are educated.

Andy Burnham: Either that is a school sixth form or the answer that the Secretary of State's Department issued was wrong, but it is an appalling state of affairs if he has barely ever managed to take himself along to a sixth-form college to speak to the staff and students who will be affected.  [Interruption.] Yes, he has been to one in his own constituency but no one else's. That is very helpful of him. I might remind him that he is responsible for everyone's constituents. At a stroke he is axing a £500 million scheme, which will have a profound effect on 650,000 young lives and on the viability of 230 FE colleges and 95 sixth-form colleges, for which he has policy responsibility, without so much as troubling himself to go along and hear at first hand what the decision will mean.
	The Secretary of State needs to climb down from his ivory tower once in a while and get out in the real world. How many students has he met who will be directly affected by the changes? Has he met any? I am not sure whether he is nodding, but if he had met some, I am absolutely sure that if nothing else, he would long since have asked his Ministers to stop implying that those high-achieving and talented young people can be described as "dead weight".

Karen Buck: Through my right hon. Friend, may I issue an invitation to the Secretary of State to come with me to City of Westminster college? Its principal has written to me to say that 1,500 of his students will lose their EMA, which in his experience has transformed attendance and achievement at the college.

Andy Burnham: I will do so, but I cannot answer for the Secretary of State. I have been to sixth-form colleges in London, and that brings me to my case about social mobility. If he visits a sixth-form college while he is in the job, may I suggest that he could do worse than visit the one that my hon. Friend mentions, or indeed Newham sixth-form college, which I visited yesterday? If he does, he might meet the young man who told me about the practical effect of losing EMA. He feels that he will have to lower his ambitions in the universities to which he applies, because he thinks his exam grades will undoubtedly suffer.

Graham Stuart: Why?

Andy Burnham: The Chairman of the Education Committee cements the impression that the Conservatives have not really thought about what it is like to be a young person in the circumstances that I have described. It is hard to put a value on the self-confidence and peace of mind that financial security gives a young person. It creates the conditions for their academic potential to be realised.
	The Secretary of State talks frequently about social mobility under the Labour Government, citing the number of young people on free school meals gaining a place at Oxford or Cambridge. Time and again, he has used that figure selectively to paint a misleading picture of Labour's record, and I wish to set the matter straight.
	First, I politely point out to the Secretary of State that Oxbridge is not the be-all and end-all. If he examines the university system as a whole, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) has taken the trouble to do, he will see that between 2005 and 2007, the number of young people on free school meals gaining a place at university increased by 18%, double the rate of increase for all young people. Does the Secretary of State recognise those figures, and if so, does he accept that EMA has played an important role in securing that social progress? Does he further accept that the proportion of children on free school meals who stayed on in full-time education at 16 increased from 60% in 2005 to 70% in 2009? That is why more are applying to, and getting into, universities.

Michael Gove: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us how many children eligible for free school meals made it into Oxford and Cambridge in the last year for which we have figures, and in the year before that, and whether he considers it to be a triumph of social mobility or an indictment of his Government's record?

Andy Burnham: Is the Secretary of State worried about anything else, or is that it? The figure is 40, which came down from 44. It did go down, but I have just told him that if he looks at all universities, he will see that the rate of increase in successful applications from children on free school meals was double the rate in the rest of the population. Is he not proud of that fact, and why does he only talk about Oxbridge? If his real passion in life is helping young people on free school meals to gain places at Oxford and Cambridge-as mine is, by the way, as somebody who took that route many years ago-can he tell the House how on earth scrapping EMA is more likely to make that happen? Precisely how does he imagine those kids on free school meals will get to Oxford and Cambridge when there is no EMA?

Gavin Barwell: The right hon. Gentleman makes his case with his usual passion and makes some important points about empowering student choice. He says that the Government are going too far in reducing the scheme by 90%, but acknowledges that some savings can be made. In these difficult times, what would be a safe reduction in the budget?

Andy Burnham: I said that I am prepared to sit down and talk about making savings as long as we maintain the principle of a national scheme that supports the kids who most need support. I made the same offer on school sports. I will have that discussion, but I am saying to the Secretary of State do not just dismantle the whole scheme and lose all the benefits that come with it. If we had been asked to make a reduction in EMA commensurate with the rest of public spending, we would have struggled to argue against it, but that is not what the Government propose. The hon. Gentleman stood alongside the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State at the last election promising young people that they would keep EMA. They are the ones with the questions to answer.
	The truth is that the Secretary of State cannot will the ends without the means. That will not happen. However talented those young people are, they cannot live off thin air. They cannot have a part-time job and walk miles to college and still get straight A's. I wonder whether he has much idea of what their lives are like. In 2003, he wrote an article in  The Times that acquires a new significance in the light of this debate. He wrote that
	"anyone put off from attending a good university by fear of that debt doesn't deserve to be at any university in the first place."
	Those are difficult sentiments for an Education Secretary to be associated with, as are these, which appear in the same article:
	"Some people will, apparently, be put off applying to our elite institutions by the prospect of taking on a debt of this size. Which, as far as I'm concerned, is all to the good."
	How genuine is his commitment to those people who want to get in to Oxbridge?
	I have worries about the Secretary of State's elitist instincts, but I read in  The Times last week another interesting piece-from Mrs Gove-which contains insights from home that raise further questions about whether he is living in the same world as the rest of us- [ Interruption. ] He should listen to this. She says:
	"Like all angst-ridden working mothers, I live in terror of upsetting my cleaner."
	Angst-ridden mums in Leigh talk of little else. I sympathise with Mrs Gove's predicament, but I wonder whether the Secretary of State could pass on a bit of advice to all the wives of his Cabinet colleagues who fret about the same curses of modern living. May I respectfully suggest that the best way to stay on the right side of the cleaner might be not to clean the oven oneself, but to press one's other half not to remove the cleaner's kids' EMA?

Julian Smith: May I press the right hon. Gentleman a little further on exactly what percentage reduction he would make to EMA? He said he is open to reducing it, but by what percentage?

Andy Burnham: I said that I would make a reduction commensurate with the overall reduction in spending. I would be prepared to sit down and say, "Can we make the EMA scheme work for young people at that level?", but the Government are not proposing that. They are proposing a scheme that is a tenth of the size of the current one. If the Secretary of State is making offers and rethinking, and if he has been ordered into yet another U-turn by the Prime Minister, I am prepared to talk about it, but the onus is on Government Members to tell us the details of what they are offering.

Gavin Barwell: In answer to my previous question, the right hon. Gentleman spoke of preserving a national scheme, but he has made the powerful point that different students face different costs. Does he agree that if a sufficient pot of money is available, decisions are better made by individual schools that know their pupils' circumstances, rather than through a national standard scheme?

Andy Burnham: My brother is the vice-principal of a sixth-form college, and I have asked him that question. He says that it would be an impossible task for his college to decide between one student and another. Colleges want to help students, but they would have to make those decisions with an inadequate fund that covers only a tenth of the amount that it currently covers. The hon. Gentleman's suggestion would mean passing on an impossible problem, but I welcome the spirit of his remarks. He will notice that I have deliberately moved a broad motion that invites the support of all hon. Members who want the Government to think again. It sounds as if he is one of them.
	Let us not throw out everything about EMA that is a success, and that brings me to the economic case for keeping it. In short, EMA is good not just for the individuals who receive it, but for all of us in building a higher-skilled and more prosperous society, in which the costs of social failure are lower. Yesterday, the chief executive of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers called on the Government to rethink their decision. He said:
	"Tough decisions have to be made, but the UK economy will increasingly need skilled engineers and technicians over the next few years. Our long-term economic health depends on making the right decisions now."
	Haroon Chowdry of the Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that even taking into account a dead-weight cost of 88%, the costs of EMA are "completely offset". He said:
	"The initial outlay of the EMA policy is likely to be more than recouped by the increase in productivity that we expect to result from the 16- and 17-year-olds staying on in education for longer".
	Has the Secretary of State made an economic impact assessment of his policy alongside an equality impact assessment? I have not seen one. Has he assessed how EMA helps to build a skilled work force that benefits us all? If we take that support away, we lose not just those skills-taxpayers must also face the higher costs of social failure as young people drop out of education. Has he made an assessment of that?
	On the Government's own figures, around 78,000 are unlikely to be able to stay in further education without EMA. We cannot know for sure whether all those young people will end up unemployed if they lose EMA, but given today's figures showing record youth unemployment, it does not look good for them. Will not the Government have to provide support for them in some other form-perhaps a less constructive form-when they have reduced hope for the future?

Fiona Mactaggart: In view of my right hon. Friend's point about improved qualifications, will he note the figures that East Berkshire college has provided to me? It has a number of students on EMA. I have worked out that its figures on improved retention would mean that something like 45 or 50 young people in the town that I represent would be unlikely to complete their course if they did not have EMA.

Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend is exactly right-that is borne out by the experience of many colleges around the country. Some of those young people are at risk of ending up in the benefits system. Will not the Secretary of State's policy lead to an increase in 16 to 17-year-olds seeking to claim jobseeker's allowance in exceptional circumstances, or certainly to an increase in the numbers claiming JSA at 18? We know that every young person not in education, employment or training costs more than £55,000, according to research for the Audit Commission. The IFS has said that EMA successfully reduced the number of NEETs. Will it not therefore cost more to get rid of EMA?
	Those costs will add up on many levels. As Paul Gregg at Bristol University has found, youth unemployment imposes a "wage scar" that can last for decades. He suggests that scrapping EMA fails to take account of other benefits, such as lower crime. That adds to the fears that through a combination of the Government's policies, they are taking hope away from a whole generation.
	I have set out the education case, the social mobility case and the economic case for keeping EMA, so let us now deal with the democratic case. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State made personal promises to young people to keep EMA. Failing to honour them will do great damage to young people's trust in Parliament and politics. From this Dispatch Box, the Secretary of State said:
	"We are entirely in favour not only of the existence of the EMA but of the provisions in the Bill to secure an extension to it."-[ Official Report, 14 January 2008; Vol. 470, c. 669.]
	Weeks before the general election, he said:
	"Ed Balls keeps saying we are committed to scrapping the EMA. I have never said this. We won't."
	On the back of these statements, does the Secretary of State not accept that young people embarking on a two-year course in September 2010 had a reasonable expectation that they would receive EMA support for the duration of their course, and that they could not have expected that the rug might be pulled from under them?
	Beyond that, do the Government have a democratic mandate for this change? This time it is not the yellow Tories, but the real Tories who have broken their promises to young people. However, did any of the people who voted Lib Dem in May vote to curtail the life chances of the least well-off in this way? Unsurprisingly, the Government's amendment shifts the ground on to deficit reduction, but if that is now the Government's main argument why did the schools Minister, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), say to the House in a holding answer dated 7 June:
	"The Government are committed to retaining the education maintenance allowance"?-[ Official Report, 14 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 307W.]
	What changed after June? Did the full costs of the risky, unwanted reorganisation of the NHS become known, or did the Prime Minister choose his marriage tax break-costed before the election at £550 million, which is almost the same amount as EMA-as a priority above EMA? This confirms the growing impression that this is a shambolic ministerial team that changes its argument and does not know what it is doing.
	The House may be forgiven for feeling a certain sense of déjà vu. This is a rushed decision with no warning, no consultation with those most affected, no evidence to support the decision, a growing backlash as the implications sink in, and a desperate rearguard action to justify it with dodgy statistics. If this is starting to sound familiar, it is because we have been here before with, for instance, Building Schools for the Future, school sport partnerships, and Bookstart. The fingerprints of this repeat offender are all over the scene of the crime. My question today to Liberal Democrat Members is this: how much longer are they prepared to carry the can in their constituencies for the disastrous decisions of this Secretary of State?

Simon Hughes: The right hon. Gentleman knows that I respect both his passion and his commitment on this issue, and he also knows that there is concern on both sides of the House about the policy to get rid of EMA without an adequate replacement. I repeat now what I have said privately, however: I will work with him, as I am working with the Secretary of State, to make sure, as far as I can, that the successor scheme achieves the objectives that are expressed in both the Opposition motion and the Government amendment. If together we can do that, then together we will improve the reputation of this House and politics in this country.

Andy Burnham: I respect the right hon. Gentleman's intentions on this issue, but what he has just said will not be good enough for young people listening to this debate whose lives will be directly affected by the loss of EMA. A vague promise to work with the Secretary of State, with an unspecified amount of money to produce an unspecified result, is not going to do the job for them. The Lib Dems have to decide whether they want to keep the benefits of this successful scheme. Do they want the same numbers of young people in their constituencies to enter further education, or are they prepared to take a risk on this Secretary of State and this Tory-led Government?
	Today's debate provides the House with an opportunity to change the message that this Government are sending out to young people. They feel bewildered and angry that they have been singled out to bear the brunt of deficit reduction, and do not understand why they in particular are to face higher costs than generations before. In Newham, they ask why they are paying with their life chances for the mistakes of others a few miles away in the City of London. In Leigh, they cannot understand why the Government want to turn the clock back to an education system based on social class, with places at university going only to those with money and connections. Today, we can show that we are listening to them. We can make a stand for equality of opportunity in education, and stop these moves towards a more elitist education system. We can call a halt to this all-out attack on the aspirations of those who have least, and keep hope alive for the hundreds of thousands of young people who will be cut adrift if the Government get their way. We can tell all young people that we value them, and stop a Government who are gambling with their life chances. I commend this motion to the House.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Lindsay Hoyle: Order. Before I call the Secretary of State, let me say that many Members wish to speak, and if we have fewer interventions, we will get through contributions more quickly.

Michael Gove: I beg to move an amendment, to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and add:
	"believes in full participation in education and training for young people up to the age of 18 and considers that support must be in place to allow those who face the greatest barriers to participation to access this opportunity; notes that the previous Government left this country with one of the largest budget deficits in the world and that savings have had to be made in order to avoid burdening future generations; further notes that the Government has increased funding for deprivation within the 16 to 19 budget and has already begun to replace the current education maintenance allowance system with more targeted support for those who face genuine barriers, including travel; and commits the Government to working with young people, schools and colleges and others outside and inside Parliament on arrangements for supporting students in further education and on improving access to, enthusiasm for and participation in further and higher education."
	It is always a pleasure to debate education with the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham). In previous Opposition day debates and on other platforms, I have always been impressed by the passion and commitment he brings to the aspirations of extending opportunity and advancing social mobility, and I believe he is right to focus in particular on what we can do better to support children in the 16 to 18 age range, whom we want to succeed in the examinations they take, and to whom we want to extend broader opportunities. In that respect, I welcome both the opportunity this debate provides and the wealth of interest it has provoked.
	I may also say that it was uncharacteristic of the right hon. Gentleman, for whom I have a great deal of respect and affection, to make a personal comment about a member of my family in the course of his speech. I am sure that, on reflection, he will recognise that it was inappropriate and beneath him, and that he will withdraw it.
	I also recognise, however, that the right hon. Gentleman was motivated in bringing forward this debate by his passion to increase social mobility. I also recognise that his bringing this passion to bear allows us all to consider what the right policies are for generating a greater degree of social mobility and for making opportunity more equal in our society.

Emily Thornberry: Will the Secretary of State give way?

Michael Gove: Not yet.
	Let us consider policies on vocational education. One concern I have is that in a debate about staying on in education, the right hon. Gentleman made no mention of specific proposals to improve vocational education. I therefore have this question: does he back or oppose the policies we are putting in place? Does he back or oppose the additional investment that is going into university technical colleges? If he backs that, it is welcome, and shows that he recognises that action is being taken. If he opposes it, however, he will have to answer for saying no to reform. Does he back or oppose the expansion in the number of studio schools, specifically targeting disadvantaged young people who need a special type of education in order to encourage them to stay on? Does he back or oppose the growth in apprenticeships-the 75,000 additional apprenticeships that we are providing? All of these questions are to do with decisions about investments in improving education and the life chances of the very poorest, and we do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is in favour or against.

Hazel Blears: Will the Secretary of State give way?

Michael Gove: In a few seconds.
	This is not just about improving vocational education. Like the right hon. Gentleman, I believe in aspiration. I believe that other young people born into circumstances similar to our own, whose parents never went to university, should have the chance to go to university. That is why we are putting in place policies to improve academic education. Again however, we do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman supports or opposes the investment we are putting in to improve it. Does he support or oppose our reading check at the age of six, to make sure every child is decoding fluently, and will be literate by the time they leave primary school? Is he in favour of that, or against? Does he oppose or support our position on GCSEs? Does he believe it is right or wrong to get rid of modules in order to make them more rigorous? Does he back or oppose the English baccalaureate? Does he believe it is right to encourage more students- [Interruption.] There is only one answer that he and some-some, I stress-Opposition Members have to the question of how to increase aspiration, and it is represented by three letters: EMA. It is important that we remove barriers and that we have the right support, but in respect of social mobility it is also important that we have a coherent and inclusive widespread education policy. From the Opposition, on all these areas we have either mulish silence or reactionary opposition.
	Is the right hon. Gentleman for or against our drive to ensure that more students get good GCSEs in English, mathematics, sciences, languages, modern history and geography? I could not tell last week. At the beginning of last week he was against, in the middle of last week he was almost in favour, and towards the end of last week Labour MPs were telling me that it was now their party's position to support our English baccalaureate.

Paul Farrelly: rose -

Michael Gove: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can tell me which of these policies he supports or opposes.

Paul Farrelly: The one thing that I can tell the Secretary of State is that 1,700 students in Newcastle-under-Lyme will be affected by the withdrawal of EMA. This is his policy, so can he tell the House how many students in Surrey Heath will be affected?

Michael Gove: Overall, 45% of students are eligible for EMA. The proportion is smaller in Surrey Heath than in Newcastle-under-Lyme, but of course the number of students who will receive enhanced support depends on the new improved provision that we hope to bring in.

Emily Thornberry: Ten youngsters from City and Islington college have come to Westminster to listen to this debate on EMA and they would very much like to have 10 minutes with the Secretary of State. I warn him that they are articulate, clever and very persuasive-but may I ask him to give them 10 minutes this afternoon?

Michael Gove: If the hon. Lady will join us, I would be delighted to talk to them at any time. Perhaps I should visit their college so that rather more than 10 of them can have a word with me.

Kevin Brennan: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Michael Gove: No, thank you. It would be a pleasure to spend time with the hon. Lady and her constituents. I know how many of them in London schools are passionately committed to greater equality.

Hazel Blears: rose-

Michael Gove: I will give way to the right hon. Lady and then I will try to make some progress.

Hazel Blears: The Secretary of State has said time and time again that he supports breaking down the barriers and that he supports aspiration. Is he aware that Salford had the lowest staying-on rate in the whole of Britain before the introduction of EMA, but within months of its introduction the number of young people staying on at 16, not just to go to university but to get the vocational qualifications they need to have the chance of a decent future, increased by 10%? I am at a loss to know why he thinks that abolishing EMA will give young people in Salford the same opportunities as they have had for the past few years. I cannot believe that the Secretary of State is setting out on a deliberate path to limit the aspiration and social mobility of young people in Salford.

Michael Gove: The right hon. Lady knows that I am a fan of her and her policies.  [Interruption.] It is a pity that more of them are not adopted by the Labour party now. However, she will also be aware that a number of things have helped to improve the staying-on rate and ensured that children have more opportunities. Central to that is ensuring that the right offer is in place in terms of the nature of qualifications, and that we improve both vocational and academic learning, as well as teacher quality. As my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) said, policies to improve teacher quality were not mentioned in the speech made by the right hon. Member for Leigh, which lasted for nearly an hour. He did not make it clear, at any point, whether he backed or opposed our investment in expanding Teach First.

David Anderson: Will the Secretary of State give way?

Michael Gove: Not yet. That was a choice and it costs, so does the right hon. Gentleman support it? We do not know. Does he back our expansion of Future Leaders? That is an investment, it costs, and we chose. Does he back it? Our expansion in the number of national and local leaders of education costs, and we invested, so does he back it or oppose it? On all those policies, we hear silence. On policies to tackle underperformance, we are extending academy freedoms to 400 new schools. Does he support that extension of opportunity? Does he support, or would he reverse, our policies to get stronger schools to help weaker schools? Does he support, or would he reverse, our policy on getting the schools commissioner back in place to turn failing schools around? Those are all policies being introduced by this coalition Government to extend social mobility and opportunity, but on every one the right hon. Gentleman is silent. He has only one policy: to spend money that we do not have.

Karen Buck: The right hon. Gentleman visited Westminster academy, in my constituency, which was established by the previous Government and which introduced and piloted Teach First. Some 80% of sixth-formers at that school receive EMA, but how many will receive a version of EMA when he withdraws 90% of it?

Michael Gove: I did have the great pleasure of visiting Westminster academy, and I am delighted to have the opportunity to do so again later this month. I hope that the hon. Lady will join me then, when we will have a seminar on how we can extend school autonomy and freedom in order to drive up standards for the poorest. The number of children who will receive support, which may be enhanced support in some cases, depends precisely on their circumstances. The point was made in research commissioned by the previous Government-not by us-that the current arrangements for EMA are poorly targeted. Some who need more support do not receive it, and some who receive support should not be receiving the amount that they do.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Gove: I wish to make some progress, because I wish to discuss one big factor that is referred to in our amendment and lies behind our position, but which the right hon. Member for Leigh completely ignored: the elephant in the room is the dire economic situation that we inherited from his Government. I know that various Labour Members-not all, because some of them are reasonable-will say, "EMA, EMA", as though they were on the benches at Goodison Park- [Interruption.] -or anywhere else. But any policy involves a choice, the choice is dependent on the money, and the question is: where is the money coming from?

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Gove: I shall not give way at this stage, because every Labour Member needs to be reminded of the mess that the Labour party landed this country in. I am not going to be put off, deflected or diverted from spelling out these facts. They are the facts that determine every decision that a responsible coalition Government have to take. Seven days after this coalition Government were formed, the International Monetary Fund said that this country had the largest deficit of any G20 country. Why was that? Labour Members say that it was because of the financial crisis, but the truth is that we entered that crisis with the largest structural deficit of any country in the G7. The fault for that debt and deficit lies-

Andy Burnham: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Michael Gove: No, not yet. The fault for that debt and deficit lies with the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. The OECD said that in 2000, thanks to Conservative policies, the UK had one of the best structural fiscal positions in the world, but by 2007 we had one of the worst in the G7. Why were we in such a weak position? It was because Labour had doubled our debt. In 1997 our national debt was £351 billion, whereas in 2010, by the time the Labour Government had left office, it was £893 billion. You cannot spend money that you do not have. The truth was revealed in a statement secreted in a Treasury desk by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne). In a note to the succeeding Chief Secretary to the Treasury, he said "There's no money." Not a single member of the Labour party has yet had the courage to accept that truth, and to atone and apologise for it.

John Woodcock: rose -

Michael Gove: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman will.

John Woodcock: The Secretary of State is talking about things that have been written down. Does he also accept that this is also about values? Will he therefore clarify for the House whether he wishes to apologise for the remarks, to which my right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State referred, that he made in his article in  The  Times about the attitude to debt and the consequences for people going to university?

Michael Gove: That article in  The Times was actually in favour of the previous Government's efforts to improve access to university. Unlike many Labour Members, I supported what Tony Blair was doing on university tuition fees; I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman did. But never mind that, because the truth is that no Labour Member has atoned or apologised for the huge economic mess in which we have been landed. This is appropriate, because the motion stands in the name of the right hon. Member for Leigh, and he was the Chief Secretary to the Treasury when the ship was steered towards the rocks, so he cannot point the finger at anyone else-

Andy Burnham: Will the Secretary of State give way?

Michael Gove: Not yet. Between June 2007 and January 2008 Northern Rock collapsed, the international banking crisis began and the global recession started. All of that happened while the right hon. Gentleman was at the Treasury.

Andy Burnham: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Michael Gove: Not yet. That may just be coincidence, but what was deliberate was that instead of getting control of public expenditure -[Interruption.] I know that the hon. Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) does not like being reminded of what happened under her Government and on her watch, but as long as I have breath in my body I will remind the people of this country of the devastating mess that the Labour party made of the economy. It is rank hypocrisy-

David Winnick: rose -

Michael Gove: Sit down. It is rank hypocrisy- [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman voted for it; we all know the role he played.

Lindsay Hoyle: Order. The Secretary of State is getting very excited. Members are trying to intervene, but I will decide when they have stood on their feet too long. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would like to carry on putting his points across to the Chamber.

Michael Gove: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
	Yes, I am passionate about this. Why should young people be saddled with the economic mess left by that lot? That lot then come back here to say that we are taking opportunity away, knocking the ladder away and increasing youth unemployment, but who created this mess? It was the guilty men and women on the Opposition Front Bench. When the right hon. Member for Leigh was Chief Secretary to the Treasury-

David Winnick: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Michael Gove: No.
	When the right hon. Gentleman was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, in the first three months-we should remember that the economy was growing at the time-he borrowed an additional £7 billion, and in the next three months he borrowed an additional £21 billion. For every hour that he was Chief Secretary, our debt rose by £5 million-and as I said, the economy was growing at that time. Perhaps he will now take the opportunity to defend his impressive stewardship of this nation's finances during those seven magical months.

Andy Burnham: I was the Chief Secretary to the Treasury who produced the spending review that was described by the Prime Minister as "tough" in 2007. If the right hon. Gentleman is so clear about all those "facts" that he is setting out for the House, why did he promise in March 2010 to keep the education maintenance allowance?

Michael Gove: Since coming into office, I have had many opportunities to look at the devastating mess that was left to us. I have also had the opportunity to reflect on the number of interviews and books written by those who sat alongside the right hon. Gentleman in government. One is a chap called Darling-do we remember him as Chancellor of the Exchequer? He pointed out that in autumn 2007 we had reached the limits of what should have been spent, but when the right hon. Gentleman was still in the Treasury he was spending and borrowing more.
	It is also the case that a gentleman called Blair-Anthony Charles Lynton Blair, the former Member for Sedgefield-said:
	"from 2005 onwards, Labour was insufficiently vigorous in limiting or eliminating the structural deficit".
	Mr Blair reflected on what should have been done and said that we should have taken "a new Labour way" out of the crisis. First, he said that we should have kept direct tax rates competitive, which we have done. He thought there should be a gradual rise in VAT and other indirect taxes, which we have brought about, and that we should have pushed further and faster on reform of public services, which we have also done. Why? Because, Mr Blair said, the danger is that
	"If governments don't tackle deficits, the bill is footed by taxpayers, who fear that big deficits now mean big taxes in the future, the prospect of which reduces confidence, investment and purchasing power. This then increases the risk of a prolonged slump".
	And that is precisely what the policies of the deficit deniers on the Opposition side would do-increase the risk of a prolonged slump, with economic policies that make no sense, at a time when we all need to focus on helping the poorest by getting the deficit down.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Gove: It is now a pleasure to give way to the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick).

David Winnick: At one moment the deficit is cited as the reason for the abolition of EMA, and in another moment we will no doubt hear the educational reasons. The right hon. Gentleman cannot seem to make up his mind. I wrote to all the secondary schools in my constituency asking what percentage of 16 to 19-year-olds were receiving EMA-in a constituency and borough where incomes are considerably lower than in the right hon. Gentleman's constituency. In every case the heads replied that it was more than 50%. In one school it was as high as 75%, and in Walsall college it was nearly 60%. These were matters that I raised on the Adjournment last week. What will happen to those who now receive EMA, and young people in the future, who want to stay on beyond the compulsory leaving age but find it very difficult, financially, to do so?

Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, whose commitment to this issue I know to be profound, which is why he raised it on the Adjournment last week, when the Minister of State, Department for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb) had a chance to reply. I would, of course, expect that in any disadvantaged constituency such as the one that the hon. Gentleman represents so well, a significant number would be in receipt of EMA. Nearly half of students receive EMA.
	I put that to the right hon. Member for Leigh, but I received no reply. He grudgingly acknowledges, under questioning from Government Members, that there is a case for reform-so far, so good-but when put to the test and asked what sort of reform, what numbers, what tests and on what basis, he did not- [Interruption.] Is he now retracting? Free bus travel is mentioned, but has the cost to the Exchequer been taken into account?  [Interruption.] Look, I am asking the right hon. Gentleman questions, but once again he is ducking and diving, dodging and weaving, and refusing to address the vacuum where policy should be.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Gove: I give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell).

Gavin Barwell: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the suggestion made by the shadow Secretary of State-that the cuts to every budget should be proportional-would have been the wrong course to go down, because that would have prevented the Government from protecting the schools budget in real terms?

Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It was interesting to hear the shadow Secretary of State arguing for the equivalent of the Geddes axe, with every service receiving the same cuts. That would presumably mean cuts to the NHS, cuts to the schools budget and cuts to Sure Start simply in order to satisfy his desire for consistency on this policy. As the right hon. Gentleman should have discovered when he was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, to govern is to choose, and to have priorities.

Richard Fuller: There are 1,200 students in my constituency who receive EMA. My right hon. Friend is giving them a very good lesson about who is responsible for the difficulties they will encounter over the coming months: the previous Government. Will he also teach them two other lessons? First, the shadow Secretary of State was part of the Government who spent all the money so that there is nothing left. When it has been spent, there should be some answers about what needs to be done with the wreckage left behind. Secondly, there is the lesson that when we are in tough times, we need to focus resources on those who are most vulnerable.

Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes an admirable and correct point.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Gove: I am happy to give way to my hon. Friend the Member for-Nuneaton, I believe.  [Interruption.] No, I should have said my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher).

Christopher Pincher: Is my right hon. Friend aware that almost 80% of institutions offer tailored support to disadvantaged young people quite separately from EMA, yet only 11% know about it? Is it not more sensible to target help by increasing knowledge about that alternative funding that is available, as it comes from institutions and so will not cost the taxpayer as much?

Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a good point. One point identified by the previous Government's research commission is that one of the biggest barriers to participation is inadequate advice and guidance.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Gove: I am now confronted with an embarrassment of riches. I would like to give way to ensure that as many Members as possible have the chance to intervene. I give way first to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey).

Jack Dromey: I am grateful to the Secretary of State. Erdington has high youth unemployment, but excellent young people who want to get on. Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that it is the combination of soaring tuition fees, the abolition of EMA, the scrapping of the future jobs fund and now the cuts forced by his Government on local youth services-a toxic combination-that will dash hopes, deny aspiration, fuel rising youth unemployment and lead once again, as in the 1980s, to a lost generation of young people?

Michael Gove: That is a passionate intervention, and I know that the hon. Gentleman has devoted his whole life in the trade union movement and elsewhere to trying to secure a better deal for the worse-off. I take nothing away from the force with which he makes his case, but practical steps are being taken, including in his own constituency, to provide a better deal for the worse off. That includes a new arrangement with a comprehensive in Sutton Coldfield to sponsor a school in his constituency so that they can both enjoy academy status and both have their standards driven up. I hope that I can co-operate with him and secure his support on that policy, alongside many other policies that we wish to introduce so as to target support better on the disadvantaged.

Alison McGovern: In response to the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher), the Secretary of State mentioned the discretionary support fund that is available for schools, but one of the most common questions that I have been asked by principals of colleges and schools in my constituency is whether the fund is available for transport. EMA is vital to give young people a choice of college and school courses, so will he comment on whether funds will be available to help young people with the cost of transport?

Michael Gove: That is a very good point. The hon. Lady has alighted on something that is critical and constructive. I shall say a little more about transport in my speech, but one thing I should say is that local authorities have a statutory duty to ensure that there is no barrier to participation for 16 to 18-year-olds because of transport. Currently the discretionary learner support fund cannot be used to fund transport, but I would like to ensure that any replacement for EMA can cover additional transport costs. However, we must ensure that local authorities cannot shirk their responsibilities in law.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Gove: I shall give way to three more Members-one from each party.

Julian Huppert: Can the Secretary of State give some assurance that the reform will mean that the people who have been highlighted by the shadow Secretary of State as being most in need will get more help, and that the new system will be better for those people, whom we should care about most?

Michael Gove: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The aim of the coalition Government is to target support better on those who need it, and our first concern is for those with special educational needs, those with learning difficulties and those who face real barriers to participation. I have had an opportunity to talk to my hon. Friend, who I know is passionate about these issues, and a number of his colleagues to try to ensure that the solution we frame, in keeping with the principles outlined by the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), captures exactly those most deserving cases.

Joan Ruddock: Some 1,400 students at Lewisham college, most of whom are from ethnic minorities, receive EMA. Would it not be invidious for the principal of that college to have to choose just 140 of those students under the Secretary of State's revised scheme? More importantly, what does the Secretary of State have to say to students on two-year courses, 229 of whom will be cut off at this moment without any possible hope of continuing their courses, without the £30 a week that matters enormously to very low-paid families in my constituency?

Michael Gove: Any Member of Parliament representing a Lewisham constituency is dealing with a huge range of difficult educational and social issues. I had the opportunity to visit Haberdashers' Aske's Knights Academy, which has a sixth form, in Lewisham last Friday. I had a chance to talk to the students and principals there and they would like to see several changes, broadly in line with the coalition Government's education policy. One position that I think is shared between the right hon. Lady, me and the students to whom I spoke is the belief that any replacement for the EMA needs to be, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) pointed out, targeted on those in the most need. Of course, those people will be more heavily represented in a constituency such as the right hon. Lady's.

Andrew Percy: I shall have something more to say on EMA if I am called to speak later, but on transport, let me set out the situation in north Lincolnshire. When our Labour-run council came to power it increased the cost of the post-16 travel pass by 500%, so it was giving money with one hand through the EMA and taking it back with the other through the transport passes, which went up from £30, when the Conservatives ran the council, to £180-and they are now £195. Will the Secretary of State ensure that whatever replaces EMA will provide for people in constituencies such as mine who live in very rural areas, for whom getting to college is a great expense?

Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very good case. As he is a former teacher and he came to the House to advance social mobility, I take seriously everything he says on these issues.

Kevin Brennan: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) is tweeting from the Chamber right now that the shadow Secretary of State has refused to meet the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), but in fact the shadow Secretary of State has already met him, and is prepared to meet him at any time. Is it in order for a Member, in the course of a debate, to make points about participants in the debate without doing it here so that everyone can hear the point they are making and have an opportunity to rebut it?

Lindsay Hoyle: What I can say is that it is for me to keep order in the Chamber. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman has brought this to my attention, and I am sure that no hon. Member will be tweeting from the Chamber to let people outside know what is going on.

Michael Gove: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making his point, but I do not know what it says about my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) or the right hon. Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock) that while they were making their interventions, he thought his own Twitter feed was more intriguing than the points they had to make. However, he is a genial soul and I know they will forgive him everything, as will I.
	Let me return to the central theme of many of the interventions we have just heard-the need to target support better on the poorest. In the context of everything we are doing in education, the coalition Government have already made a series of decisions, with constrained resources, to make sure that the poorest benefit from our policies. We are extending free child care to 15 hours a week for all three and four-year-olds. That did not happen under the previous Government and I had hoped they would support it, but we have introduced it. We are also extending free child care to 100,000 of the poorest two-year-olds. That happened on this watch. Those 100,000 children would not have received free child care and preparation for school if it had not been for the commitment of the coalition Government. I am grateful that some Opposition Members, such as the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) and the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), support us, and I am sure that many others recognise that this is a progressive step that all should applaud.
	We are also implementing a pupil premium-£625 million this year, rising to £2.5 billion by the end of the comprehensive spending review. As a direct result of that, every poor child will have thousands more spent on their education. That money will be invested in better teaching, one-to-one tuition and catch-up learning, all of which is additional money on top of the schools budget. That policy was rejected by the Labour party in coalition negotiations. In order to make sure that all those interventions to help the poorest could be funded, the coalition Government had to take some tough choices, one of which is to replace EMA with a new system of support.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: Will the Secretary of State give way?

Michael Gove: In a second.
	The reason why we are replacing EMA-beyond the desperate financial situation that we inherited-is that we are making our policy based on evidence that was commissioned, sifted, prepared and analysed by an organisation that was working for the previous Government. The National Foundation for Educational Research was commissioned by my predecessor to look at the barriers to continued participation in education for 16, 17 and 18 year-olds. I shall go into some detail about what the report argued. It concluded that the EMA or any replacement for it should be targeted better at those young people who feel that they cannot continue in learning without financial support. That argument has consistently been made in the debate by a number of people from different parties. Yes, we acknowledge that there will have to be cuts-although the right hon. Member for Leigh will not say how many-and yes, we acknowledge that some of the people who currently receive it might not be the most deserving. If the economy were growing it would be fantastic to offer that incentive, but given that it is not, let us make sure that those most in need are supported.
	Half of young people receive the EMA, but only 12% of them-so 6% of students overall-said that they needed financial support to stay in learning. The NFER says that financial support should be increasingly targeted at those most in need, and I could not agree more. Specific financial barriers to learning-which have, I must in fairness add, been mentioned by the right hon. Member for Leigh-are faced by particular students. I am particularly conscious of the need to support students who have learning difficulties, and I am aware that when students have caring responsibilities they need more support. I am particularly aware that when students are teenage parents, additional financial support will be required because of their specific circumstances. In the scheme that we are developing, all those considerations weigh heavily with me.
	There are also individuals in specific circumstances who need additional support, as the right hon. Member for Leigh has also pointed out. Additional support sometimes depends on the course one pursues. If one is pursuing a catering course, the cost of buying whites and knives and so on will be more than the cost of an academic course in a sixth form where the books are supplied and the costs of participation are less. We need to take that into account, as well as the need for straightforward support. There are poorer students at school who will be eligible for free school meals-and quite right too-who will not have that support in FE colleges. One of the questions in my mind is how we can ensure that the basic maintenance needs to keep body and soul together, which poorer students require, will be available, whatever institution they attend.
	There are also students-particularly, but not exclusively, in rural areas-who face barriers to participation because of transport costs and transport sparsity. Again, I am looking at all those areas. I am helped by the detailed work that has already been undertaken by the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark. His job as access advocate is not just to explain how our policies can help social mobility at every stage; he is making sure that the replacement for EMA deals with all the real-world issues. I am grateful to him for his support, as I am grateful to any hon. Member who can make constructive suggestions about how we can better target the money given the constraints under which we operate.

Julie Hilling: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the research about students staying on was flawed? It was narrow, talked only to young people in sixth forms and did not talk to their parents, who actually make the decision about whether the child can stay on at school.

Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making that point. In fact, the survey was wide-ranging; more than 2,000 people were approached. It was scientifically conducted, and the organisation was commissioned by the previous Secretary of State. I had my differences with him, but I think the research is impeccable. However, the hon. Lady makes a good point about parents. As I am sure all Members are aware, any child who stays in education beyond the age of 16 makes their family, and of course the mother, eligible for child benefit. One of the things that the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) explicitly stated when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer was that he envisaged, in the first instance, that child benefit would go in order to pay for EMA. He said subsequently that actually they could pay for both child benefit and EMA because of the success of the Labour Government in removing our debt. Now that we have a massive debt, there is a tough decision to be made, and this Government have decided to keep child benefit for those over the age of 16. The question for Opposition Members who want to maintain EMA at its full level is whether they would cut child benefit to pay for it.

Barbara Keeley: rose -

Michael Gove: Would the hon. Lady do that?

Barbara Keeley: I want to take the Secretary of State back to the subject of vulnerable young people, particularly young carers. I have raised the point in debate on a number of occasions, for example in the Christmas pre-recess Adjournment debate. Removing a national scheme, from which a group of young carers in Salford benefit, particularly because almost all of them are in receipt of EMA, and replacing it with a scheme one tenth of the size and at the discretion of college principals, will not be the answer. College principals do not know who their young carers are. The right hon. Gentleman needs to be clearer, and more work needs to be done, because those young people deserve the support offered by EMA and they will not manage without it. They will struggle and their caring work load will swamp them.

Michael Gove: The hon. Lady makes a good point. We want to ensure that learners with caring responsibilities are looked after. They are a small but growing number, who face enormous challenges and are living heroically, attempting to balance their responsibilities. In any replacement scheme, we need to ensure better targeting. The truth is that the current scheme does not effectively target those people.

Alun Cairns: The NFER data that the Secretary of State has highlighted are startling, in that they demonstrate the amount of dead-weight and inefficiency in the existing arrangements. Can my right hon. Friend tell us whether he has had any helpful suggestions from the Opposition as to what changes could be made to target support more efficiently, particularly in light of the needs of many students that he has highlighted?

Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a good point. I have had a couple of helpful suggestions from Opposition Back Benchers-I shall not name them-who recognise that we need to make reductions and believe that support can be better targeted. I have looked at their submissions and they have helped to shape my thinking. In the same way, I have been fortunate in that a number of Liberal Democrat and Conservative colleagues have made points to me about how a replacement scheme should be targeted. Many of the arguments had occurred to me beforehand, but many were made with such force and passion and were backed up with such persuasive facts that they have certainly shaped our policy. The opportunity exists for other Members to make such points, and although I am not sure that the seminar-style atmosphere of an Opposition day debate is necessarily ideal for such submissions, I am always grateful to receive them.

Julian Smith: On behalf of students and staff at Craven college in my constituency, I thank the Secretary of State. They made strong representations to me about the need to look at travel in the reworked EMA, so I thank my right hon. Friend for agreeing to do that.

Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Gove: I want to make some progress.
	On travel, it is important that we recognise that local authorities are under a statutory duty to support young people aged between 16 and 19, and, up to the age of 24, any young learner with learning difficulties, to get to school or college. It is the law. Local authorities are failing in their statutory duty if they do not provide support. The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 strengthened that duty. Local authorities must consult young people and their parents, publish an appropriate plan and ensure that there is access.
	I appreciate that local authorities, like all of us, are having to deal with the consequences of the desperate financial mess the previous Government bequeathed us, but the best local authorities are showing the way. Oxfordshire provides transport and totally waives the cost for any student whose family is in receipt of income support, housing benefit, free school meals or council tax benefit. Essex waives travel costs for children in receipt of a range of benefits. In Liberal Democrat-controlled Hull, any student in receipt of education maintenance allowance also receives a travel grant to cope with the full cost-

David Blunkett: They won't now.

Michael Gove: I suspect they won't if a Labour council takes power, but if people are wise enough to vote Liberal Democrat at the next local election in Hull-[Hon. Members: "Oh."]-or for the Conservatives in any seat where we are well placed to defeat Labour, they will have a council that is fulfilling its statutory duty. It is no surprise that there are Liberal Democrat and Conservative councils that ensure that all students receive the support they deserve. It is striking that that is in addition to EMA.

Jeremy Corbyn: Transport costs are obviously a major factor for students all over the country. Can the Secretary of State explain why under the Transport for London fares rise approved by Boris Johnson, EMA-receiving students are charged 65p per bus fare, whereas under the previous Ken Livingstone regime they all had free bus travel to encourage young people in London to stay on in education? Will the Secretary of State have a word with his friend the Mayor of London?

Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that opening salvo in the Re-elect Ken campaign. Behind it, there is an important point, which is that in London transport and travel costs are significantly less-whoever the Mayor is-than those faced by people in rural constituencies. I was particularly struck by the testimony of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) that students in his constituency may need to undertake a round trip of two hours a day to reach a further education college. In constituencies such as those represented by the hon. Members for Wells (Tessa Munt) or for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke), significant journeys have to be undertaken. I am also aware that because of the nature of sixth-form and FE college provision, many students will travel further for their sixth-form education than they would for school education. That is why the statutory duty exists. I am grateful that the Local Government Association has been so positive about so many coalition policies, and I shall work with local authorities to ensure that we can continue to provide that support. Let us be clear: EMA was designed and implemented to augment an existing statutory duty, not to replace it.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Michael Gove: I shall not give way at this stage. I am conscious of the amount of time that has passed, and conscious too that many hon. Members want to speak in the remaining part of the debate.
	If we are to increase participation, and if we are to generate greater social mobility, we need to be clear: we need to remove barriers. We also need to ask who faces the largest barriers. How can we help them better and what are the other barriers, as well as the financial one? The research shows us that, yes, the cost of transport, the cost of equipment or the cost of some maintenance can be a factor for some students, but it also shows us that there are bigger barriers: poor guidance, with students not being offered the right advice; poor choices, with an inadequate range of courses available; and above all, poor attainment. The real barrier to participation in education after the age of 16 is the quality of education that a person has received up to the age of 16. Yes, half this country's students are in receipt of EMA, but by the time that half this country's students reach the age of 16, they do not have five good GCSEs. We discovered the other week that barely 15% of students have GCSEs in the five essential areas of English, mathematics, science, languages and the humanities.
	If we really believe in generating social mobility in this country, we must ask ourselves how every pound is best invested. Graham Allen is quite clear: spend it at the beginning. Frank Field is quite clear: spend it early on. The coalition Government are quite clear-

Lindsay Hoyle: Order. The right hon. Gentleman knows better than to refer to Members of the House in that way.

Michael Gove: I am sorry, Mr Deputy Speaker.
	The hon. Member for Nottingham North-a Labour Member-and the right hon. Member for Birkenhead are quite clear that we should invest in the early years. That is what the coalition Government are doing, and at a greater rate and in a more powerful way than the previous Government. The investment in early years, the reform of education, the investment in the pupil premium and the range of reforms that I mentioned earlier-the right hon. Member for Leigh has remained silent about them-make up a powerful package to generate greater social mobility.
	The question for all hon. Members is: are we going to be sufficiently grown up to acknowledge that we have a deficit, or are we going to be deficit deniers? Are we going to be progressive enough to target support at those who need it most, or are we going to say that the existing system is perfect and need not be reformed? Are we going to say, "Let's get our whole school system right," or are we just going to spend more on one unreformed benefit? There is a basic choice today: vote with the Opposition, and therefore vote for reaction, complacency and deficit denial; or vote with the Government, and therefore vote for progressive policies, an education policy that will really change things and an opportunity, at last, to kick-start social mobility in this country.

Derek Twigg: I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate. I wish that the Secretary of State would stop the nonsense of talking about deficit denial. We know that the bankers caused the crisis. We invested in the economy to ensure that we could keep people in work and in their homes, and so that we could fund education-that is the difference between us and the Government.
	We are considering not only cuts to EMA, but the Government's wholesale betrayal of balancing their cuts towards young people. EMA has been a lifeline for young people, especially those from less well-off backgrounds, of whom there are many in my constituency. However, the cut must be considered in the context of what has happened to the likes of Halton under this Government. In addition to the cut in EMA, we have faced a massive £180 million cut in Building Schools for the Future. The tuition fees policy will have a particular effect on my constituents, and we experienced a £1.2 million education cut last year, although Tory-controlled Cheshire West and Cheshire East councils had a cut of only £600,000. We must not forget that the Government have made a deliberate ideological attempt to make cuts in Labour authorities and areas.
	EMA has been an important tool to support young people in education and to encourage them to stay on, succeed and realise their aspirations. It also supports choice because it allows young people to choose the institution that is best for them, not just the nearest one. Ending the payment stacks the odds even more against those who have least but want to get on in life.
	Halton benefited from being one of the original pilot areas for EMA. There was a 55% increase in EMA recipients between 2004 and 2010, with last year's numbers exceeding 2,000 recipients. From talking to young people, I know how important EMA has been to them, so its withdrawal will lead to students dropping out and becoming NEETs-those not in employment, education or training-which will have a significant economic and social impact in deprived areas such as Halton. That would go against the so-called coalition's policy of reducing the number of NEETs, and it would also reverse the marvellous progress that has been made in Halton to reduce its proportion of NEETs from 8.3% in 2007 to 4.5% last year.
	The Association of Colleges reports that the National Foundation for Educational Research estimates that 12% of young people who received EMA believed that they would not have participated in their courses if they had not received it. In some colleges, half the students surveyed said that they felt that they would not be able to continue their course following the withdrawal of EMA, while a further third thought that they would need to weigh up the pros and cons of staying on at college.
	Mike Sheehan is the widely respected principal of my constituency's Riverside college-the college I attended. He has turned round a number of failing colleges and is achieving great things at Riverside college. He says that the withdrawal of EMA on new year's eve has adversely affected recruitment to the college's January programme. The figures are down by almost three quarters-just 25 students compared with 106 last January. He is worried about the students who enrolled on two-year courses in full expectation of receiving EMA throughout their course. It is unfair that EMA is being withdrawn partway through courses, and the Association of Colleges says that that will affect 300,000 young people throughout the country. Mr Sheehan says:
	"Attendance, retention and achievement have risen drastically at Riverside College in recent years. We are absolutely convinced that EMA has played a significant part in bringing about these improvements. It has provided a real incentive for young people to attend fully and to stay at college."
	Some surveys have pointed to higher attendance and take-up rates for courses among young males from disadvantaged backgrounds who receive EMA. That is especially important in deprived areas such as Halton, and that is to say nothing about the higher earning potential of better-qualified students who complete college and the contribution to the economy that they can therefore make. According to this month's Commons Library statistics on EMA and the Government's research figures, that contribution more than offsets the costs of the EMA programme.
	Both the Secretary of State and his shadow spokesman touched on a fundamental aspect of EMA for students from poorer backgrounds: the ability to pay for meals, books and educational equipment. One of the main uses of EMA, however, is the funding of transport. In December 2010, the Association of Colleges commissioned a survey to detail the accessibility of transport to people aged 16 to 19 attending college. It found that 94% of colleges believe that the abolition of EMA will affect students' ability to travel to and from college. The support given by local authorities is extremely varied. Some 29% of authorities provide transport while 20% give financial support. Around 18% provide both, but 27% provide neither. Existing local authority transport provision is extremely patchy, and local authorities cannot be expected to pick up the tab for the withdrawal of EMA.
	The Secretary of State might wish to examine Halton's case. We had £30 million taken out of a £130 million budget as a result of the local government settlement, in-year cuts and other changes to programmes. If he thinks that any council, let alone a small one such as Halton, can bear such a cut without services being affected, he is in a different world. Councils cannot find additional funding to fill that sort of gap.

Paul Farrelly: Does my hon. Friend agree that, as with the rest of the cuts agenda, the Secretary of State's debt argument is simply a spurious decoy? Estimates of the debt position improved following the election, so the position was better after the election than when the Secretary of State promised that he would not abolish EMA.

Derek Twigg: We worked hard on the economy to keep people in work and to give them housing support. Today's unemployment figures show the effect of the cuts that have already taken place, and we will see the real effects in the next year or two. The Government's position is a red herring.
	I will make another point to the Secretary of State, if he will listen for a second: if he is to bring forward another policy, when will we see it? As Mr Sheehan told me, the situation is causing a lot of uncertainty in colleges.
	This is another example of the Government's broken promises, as we have seen with the economy, health and transport. We have heard that the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State said that they would keep EMA, so this is a big broken promise on education. They are letting down hundreds of thousands of young people throughout the country, and at least 2,000 or 3,000 young people in my constituency will be affected over the next few years. This disgraceful policy discriminates against the poorest and the most deprived communities, so the Secretary of State should apologise for it today.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Lindsay Hoyle: Order. Before I call the next speaker, I point out that many hon. Members wish to speak. The previous speaker set a good example by not using the full eight minutes. The fewer the interventions, the more speakers I can call.

Graham Stuart: It is a pleasure to take part in the debate about scrapping the education maintenance allowance. I share the frustration of many Opposition Members about the potential impact of abolishing it. However, although they may deny the relevance of the deficit, my anger is directed at the Labour party and the state in which the previous Government left the public finances.

John Cryer: You should remember you're the Chair of the Committee.

Graham Stuart: I am entirely happy to chair a Committee and to bear witness to the reality of education funding. I am involved in education and serve on the Committee because I care passionately about improving the quality of education and opportunity in this country. We may hear from others later, but the shadow Secretary of State did at least have the goodness to recognise that there was room for reducing the deficit. However, he would not tell us where, what, when or how. When I consider the attempt to make more effective interventions in the early years and I look at the nursery education opportunities for two-year-olds, I ask myself whether I would prefer to cut that or keep the EMA.
	A Labour Member suggested that there might be differences between Members. In my constituency, some students travel for an hour and 40 minutes each way to attend Bishop Burton further education college. That is a real issue for a rural area such as mine. However, I know that half of all 17 and 18-year-old full-time students are eligible for the EMA, and I am aware of the chronic crisis and pressure on educational budgets-the desperate desire to deliver the outcomes that we have struggled to provide from our system. I have said it before, and I will risk repeating it: I know that the Labour Government were utterly committed to trying to close the gap. They had will and they had resource-a resource which has sadly gone-yet too often the gap widened rather than narrowed. I do not blame the Opposition for using this issue today, but I hope that we will collectively, not in a party political way, take the limited funds that are available-the deficit is not an irrelevant fact but the fundamental elephant in the room-and look to do what is best. We had a lot of spending previously, and we have a diet of hard decisions now. They must be faced.
	The shadow Secretary of State suggested that the best approach was to cut everything by the same amount. Is that really the strategically sensible way to ensure that we improve outcomes for people in our society, not least those with least? I do not think that it is. So I am interested to know how the discretionary learner fund-the replacement for the EMA-will work, because of the realities faced by my constituents, who travel over three hours a day to get to an FE college, and who then achieve at the end of that. If those people manage to do that in the face of great difficulty and personal inconvenience, I want to be sure that colleges such as Bishop Burton, which run private enterprises to make profits so that they can have a fleet of vehicles, are not disadvantaged. Despite those vehicles, the college is worried that the students, who often live in small hamlets, need to travel from their home to the pick-up point for the college bus. We need to ensure that we have a system-whether financed by local authorities or the replacement for the EMA-that covers that.
	It is hard to believe that the EMA as it stands is the most sensible use of scarce resource. I am not trying to make a party political point, and I am mindful of my position as Chair of the Select Committee, but I want us to devise the system that works most effectively and yet does not deny the reality.
	When I was first elected as a councillor-in Cambridge-many years ago, I went to a budget survey meeting with the public in a local shopping centre, which the then Labour council had arranged. I was handed a form which gave a list of spending areas for the budget debate. It said, "Please tick all those areas where you would like to see more spending." I am a small-state Conservative in some ways, and I found many items on which I wanted to spend more. I was terribly aware of what went on in my ward-the lack of provision for young people, the need to do more in many areas-and I wanted to tick many boxes. However, the Labour council had sensibly included a proviso, which said, "All we ask is that for every box you tick to give more money, you identify another item on which you want to spend less."
	That is the challenge that faces the Select Committee, which will look under the bonnet of the new fund. It will examine engagement and participation by 16 to 19-year-olds. We want to ensure that the dire warnings by the shadow Secretary of State are not fulfilled and that young people are not put off education, but we must realise that we are in a highly constrained position because of this Government's financial inheritance. Like that wise Labour council many years ago, every time we say, "Let's save the EMA"-Opposition Members have not made it clear so far whether they want to save all or half of EMA-we should ask, "What will we cut?" Just as, in that shopping centre, members of the public, like me, were told, "It's not enough to say you want better youth services; you've got to tell us where to save the money too," if hon. Members are to do justice to the young people, whom we all want to see given decent and proper opportunity, we must ensure that we do so in a financially responsible manner.

Barry Sheerman: It is an interesting debate, but I found it hard to concentrate on the Secretary of State's speech because I was expecting a speech that was focused particularly on the motion and on EMAs, but he seemed to want to talk about almost everything else. He spoke endlessly about the economy but said little about the EMA.
	In my brief speech, I want to make a couple of points. First, as a former Chair of the Education Committee, I say to the current Chair that, as Nye Bevan said, it is a question of priorities, but he and I, and other hon. Members, served on the Committee when it conducted an inquiry into NEETs-one of our last inquiries under the previous Government, and I believe that the impact on NEETs of the removal of EMAs will prove very much more expensive than the NEET budget.
	I beg the Government to think in terms of the broader picture. The previous Government introduced EMAs because we knew that if we could keep a young person on in education from 16 to 18, we had got 'em-they stayed on, and not just to go to Oxford and Cambridge, which the Secretary of State is obsessed with. The one thing that annoys me most is the obsession with which kids who had free school meals went to Oxford and Cambridge. I am a London School of Economics graduate, but I must point out that there are many much better universities than Oxford and Cambridge. There are brilliant universities-the university of Huddersfield in my constituency is fantastic. It has one of the best design and engineering departments in the country. So please, Secretary of State, do not be obsessive about Oxford and Cambridge.
	The record is there to show that as a result of the successful policy of introducing EMAs, many more young people-a tremendous number-now stay on from 16 to 18. They do not do all the posh things such as going to Oxford and Cambridge or the Russell Group universities, but they stay on for apprenticeships and training; they go for craft training and become technicians. The Secretary of State shares my desire to get more kids to become technicians. There is nothing wrong with that, and EMAs have meant that many more have come through. We know that without EMAs, many young people will be put off doing so.
	With EMAs, we have changed the educational culture; it is the one area in which we have done so. Kids now stay on until they are 18 and that opens up their lives to new opportunities. The abolition of EMAs will change the culture back to what it was before.

Stephen Williams: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Barry Sheerman: In a moment.
	We must also consider the long-term implications and the unintended consequences. I pray in aid a recent report from the Equalities Commission. It showed how many young people from ethnic minorities were unemployed and the sort of employment those who worked had. For example, 25% of Pakistanis are taxi drivers. It showed how many Pakistani, Bangladeshi, black, and white working-class young people have been brought into education and stay in education because of EMAs. If those young people are not in education or training, they will not get jobs. The long-term cost to our communities will be frightening.

Rushanara Ali: In the local college in my constituency, 50% of young people surveyed who receive the EMA have said that they are unlikely to be able to stay on in education. That is a damning indictment. Secondly, is my hon. Friend aware that it is predicted that the Government will spend some £40 million trying to cancel the EMA? Young people will feel very let down if it is true that so much money will be spent doing that. It is appalling.

Barry Sheerman: My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I agree with it, but may I press on and say two more things? The first is that when I chaired the Children, Schools and Families Committee, it always believed in evidence-based policy. That means listening to all the evidence, not just taking one bit that we like and saying, "I'll base the policy on this," and ignoring all the other evidence. I ask the current Chair of the Education Committee, when he has an inquiry on the subject-he will have one; it will be too late, but he will have one-to bear in mind that we always took all the evidence.
	I have not heard one mention today of Professor Alison Wolf, whom the Secretary of State appointed to look at 14-to-19 education and vocational opportunities. What on earth happened to that? This is just like the increase in student fees; we are to have a White Paper, after the Government have decided what they will do about student fees. It is a classic case of putting the cart before the horse. The fact is that the Secretary of State has got one of the country's leading experts-Professor Alison Wolf from King's College London-to look at the issue, but he will make all the major decisions that will influence how many young people stay on in further and vocational education before she brings forward her report in spring.

Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for reminding the House that the coalition Government enjoy the support and advice of the leading figure in the world of vocational education. I am aware of two detailed reports on the effectiveness of the education maintenance allowance: the 2007 Institute for Fiscal Studies report, which showed that the allowance had a marginal impact on both attainment and attendance, and of course the National Foundation for Educational Research report, which was published in autumn last year. Can he tell me of any other serious reports, from the NFER or anyone else, that make a contrary case?

Barry Sheerman: May I remind the Secretary of State of what one of his favourites, the Policy Exchange, said?
	"The only possible remaining argument for the EMA is social justice-that young people from poorer backgrounds deserve to be supported from 16 rather than at 18. This is a pretty weak argument".
	So that is another one, and the Institute for Fiscal Studies has looked again at its original research, as he well knows.

Michael Gove: Has the hon. Gentleman actually read the 2007 IFS report, or the 2010 NFER report? If he had read those, and the Policy Exchange report, he would have seen that those three serious academic reports all say that the EMA does not produce the benefits that he, in his passion, would like it to.

Barry Sheerman: The IFS report, taken on its own, shows that even if only 8% to 10% of people took up the EMA, that would pay for its cost, in terms of the fuller picture. Today, we are talking about the full cost and impact, and the change in the culture in our country. It is interesting; I thought that the Secretary of State was going to tell us what the hell had happened to the Alison Wolf report, and why he was introducing policy before he had even bothered to listen to the leading expert, who he has working on the issue. A lot of us have actually contributed to her inquiry. What was the point of talking to the Government, and giving one's advice and experience, when the Government ignore it because the Secretary of State has introduced his policy before Alison Wolf introduced hers? We will wait and see what the report brings us.
	We are at a pivotal moment. I think most people in the House would agree that we have to make some changes-extraordinary ones. If I sat down with a group of people who care about education in this House, and we discussed what we were to cut, we could think extraordinary things. If I were really pushed and wanted to defend the EMA, I would go for larger class sizes, because there is real evidence that slightly larger class sizes do not make all that much difference. That might upset some of my colleagues, and I agree that there are priorities to be set and choices to be made, but this Secretary of State has never given us a chance to set priorities.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Barry Sheerman: I will not give way. The fact is that we could have that negotiation and discussion. It is right that there should be priorities, but removing the EMA will hurt all communities, up and down the land. In my constituency of Huddersfield, two FE colleges, Kirklees college and Huddersfield New college, depend heavily on educational maintenance allowances; they do a wonderful job in bringing young people who would not otherwise have the chance into education across the piece.
	I am reminded that many people on the Conservative side do not actually know much about FE.  [Interruption.] Listen a minute. Only last June, the Association of Colleges gave a golden award to six people who went to FE colleges. A person could not get through the Conservatives and Liberals who were gathered around Colin Firth as he got his award. He never went to university; he went to an FE college. Those people in this House who understand the wonderful job that FE colleges do will share my feeling that this is a shameful day in educational policy-a day on which the Secretary of State did not have the courage to defend his arguments, but instead first used the lifebelt of taking more and more interventions to save him making a speech, and secondly went on about the broader economy. This is a shameful day, and the Secretary of State should be ashamed of it.

Annette Brooke: May I say how pleased I am that the Secretary of State is working with schools and colleges on how the enhanced learner support fund should operate? The few comments that I shall make today are intended to feed into the work that I understand is going on in the vital area of supporting participation in 16-to-19 education and training, and into the work that my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) is carrying out. I believe that there should be a comprehensive view across all education and training for that age group.
	Over several years, I have received a number of representations about the unfairness of the EMA system, and I am quite convinced that there is a need for reform, but equally, I am concerned that its replacement should provide sufficient support. On the point about unfairness, I would like to quote just one constituency case-a rather unusual one. A single parent, earning just over £30,000 a year, had triplets in a local sixth form. I wrote pleading letters to the relevant Labour Minister, saying that surely there should be more flexibility to take into account individual circumstances, but to no avail. Of course child benefit is not very helpful when one has triplets, either, because for the second and third triplet, the rate is considerably lower.
	There must be many cases where a family has two or more siblings in post-16 education, yet the system that the Labour party is defending so vigorously did not have the capacity to respond to individual circumstances. I believe that we need something that is individual and targeted. It is clear to me that we need to address potential barriers to entry faced by individual students in accessing the most appropriate courses of their choice, and how those barriers can best be overcome.
	Like the Secretary of State, I believe in choice and social mobility. That means access to the right institution that offers the right range of subjects for the particular student. I represent a constituency that is relatively affluent, but it certainly includes young people who need and deserve our support. It has a mix of urban and rural areas. I concur with the points made about the very long journeys that have to be undertaken by some students.
	I shall deal briefly with the main barriers, as I see them. I see transport as a major barrier. It is not enough to say that local authorities have a statutory duty. The local authorities that cover my constituency have long since abandoned providing transport for sixth-form students, and have taken the attitude that EMA replaced the need to cover public transport. They have been quite gruelling, saying, "Ah, there's another school or college that is closer, where you could do more or less what you want to do." That is not good enough.
	Poole local authority, for example, has grammar schools. If a young person has gone to a secondary modern school from the poorer part of town, it is right that they should have access to the grammar school if they have worked hard to get the qualifications. I ask the Secretary of State to look at that. We believe in social mobility, and with the grammar school system there is a particular problem.
	With reference to FE colleges, we need to take on board the reasons why young people go on to further education. It is often because it offers a totally different type of course from those they were able to do at school. Again, there is a problem with a local authority funding transport because somebody wants to go to a college of further education rather than to their local comprehensive school. School might have been a bad experience. I have lectured in further education for many years. It is inspiring to turn around students who have had bad school experiences and turn out to be brilliant students in a different setting. I am concerned that we may be depriving some children of those opportunities.
	My constituency has no FE colleges, which inevitably means a great deal of travel for youngsters there. Students from my constituency go further afield, beyond Bournemouth and Poole college, in the opposite direction to the specialist college, Kingston Maurward, which has incredibly interesting courses. Originally one of the agricultural colleges, it offers many course that are suitable for particular interests, such as work with animals. It is extremely important that transport is paid.
	I am concerned that the issue of transport costs is not as simple as it sounded when the Secretary of State was talking about it. I would support the introduction of a young people's travel card. I would make a sacrifice. I am eligible for a bus pass although I do not have one. Even if I had it, I do not think I need to be able to travel all over the country for free. I believe many people would accept a cut there.
	A further barrier is the cost of equipment. Bournemouth and Poole college has an amazing reputation for catering and hospitality, as hon. Members might imagine. Of course, the equipment is expensive, and students must have help with that. We have discussed the fact that some courses need more expensive books than others-for example, students going on to study art will need expensive materials.

Stephen Williams: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Annette Brooke: I had better not, given the time.
	There is a big difference between school, where free school meals are available, and the local college. Young people's life chances can be transformed by going to college, but they need to have enough food.
	I draw attention to the young people who are vulnerable and particularly disadvantaged-those not living in a family home for whatever reason, children in care, care leavers, young people who are homeless, children and young people with learning difficulties, teenage parents and young carers. We need some red lines: some groups of young people must be protected, come what may. In future, we must enhance access, ensure success and allow our young people to achieve their potential, regardless of background and financial circumstances.
	I have two specific questions. One is about young people who are part-way through courses and who may not have EMA for the next year of the course. How will that be tackled? Will there be ring-fencing? I am worried about colleges and schools having pots of money and its going off into other activities. Finally, we seem to be facing a big threat today, but together we could work on the opportunities arising from it.

Lyn Brown: The Government's decision to abolish EMA will damage young people's prospects throughout the country, but in a constituency such as mine in east London, the results will be frankly disastrous. Removing seven eighths of the money and establishing, possibly, a residual discretionary support fund will be no compensation. It will place colleges and schools in the impossible position of allocating resources thinly but fairly among many deserving students.
	At present, more than 5,000 students in my local borough of Newham receive EMA-more than two in five of all of our 16 to 19-year-olds. It makes a real difference to them and to their families. Our 16-plus participation rate is up almost 13% since EMA came on-stream, from 81.4% in 2003-04 to 94.1% in 2008-09. Newham sixth-form college is the largest in London, and more than three quarters of students receive EMA. The vast majority are on the full £30 weekly allowance. Students I met reported giving the contribution to their parents for their keep, so let there be no mistake: this money will be sorely missed.
	Newham's average household income is £455 a week. Only three other English local authorities have higher levels of child poverty. Silver spoons are in short supply in Newham. For most of the students at Newham sixth-form college, EMA is not just nice-to-have pocket money but a financial necessity. It helps with the costs of travel, buying books and other course requirements, and contributes to household incomes. EMA is not a bribe, as has been claimed, but a pathway to further and higher education for young people in low-income families. EMA offers a lifeline to many against whom the odds are already stacked. But now, EMA recipients who are halfway through their courses say they do not know how they can carry on when their funding is withdrawn. Others worry about the motivation for younger brothers and sisters to keep attending school and doing their best.
	Do we really want a country where young people have to worry about the significant sacrifices that their parents will have to make to allow them to undertake further education? Do we really want young people to have to forgo their lunches a couple of times a week, or walk miles to college because they cannot afford the bus fare? Do we really want them to spend every spare minute they have in part-time work?
	Since its creation, EMA has sent a strong signal to teenagers that a positive future is available if they work hard and play by the rules. We can contrast that positive and inclusive message with the hugely discouraging signals we are now sending to our young people: the abolition of EMA alongside the cutting of Aimhigher, the trebling of tuition fees and the ending of the future jobs fund. It is obvious that we are storing up problems for the future, and the Government's decision to slash the support for young people to stay on in education will be viewed by future generations as a betrayal-a costly mistake-as well as another broken promise.

Andrew Bridgen: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Lyn Brown: I am sorry, but I promised not to give way.
	The Government, and even the Prime Minister earlier today, try to justify the abolition of EMA by relying on a single research study. But as ever with this Government, when it comes to their use of statistics it pays to read the small print. The research that they point to was carried out by the highly reputable National Foundation for Educational Research, but that study was not an evaluation of EMA; it was a much broader project, looking at barriers to learning for all 16 to 19-year-olds. The research sampled only year 11 students-students not in the sixth form, with no experience of the additional costs associated with further education-so the study cannot legitimately bear the conclusion that the Government want to draw from it. The research is an excuse for their decision to abolish EMA, not a reasoned explanation.
	As my right hon. and hon. Friends have said, other independent studies found that EMA does increase participation in post-16 learning, particularly among young people from families on low incomes. Members do not have to take my word for it. As my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) said, the Institute for Fiscal Studies-that well-known left-wing organisation!-looked at the Government's case and found it wanting, stating that it was based on selective assumptions. It concluded that EMA is an effective use of public money. I do not believe that cutting EMA is inevitable in the light of the financial situation. I am not a deficit denier; I simply believe that abolishing EMA is not economically sound. Bankers' bonuses flourish, yet ordinary young people pay the price. There is no policy justification for the cut. Let there be no mistake: the abolition of EMA is a political choice.
	Let me tell those who still think that the allowance is a bribe about Tom Chigbo, a London boy, and the first black president of Cambridge student union. He lives in my constituency. He tells me that he would not have got to Cambridge without EMA: he used it for travel and food and to attend additional lectures and seminars in London, which made his personal statement stand out and gave him something to talk about at interview. Members who will vote in the Government Lobby should remember Tom and the others up and down the country whose future they are blighting and whose potential they are capping.

David Morris: Today we are debating a scheme introduced by the previous Government that has done some good for poorer students but is also wasteful and inefficient. We need to work out how to maintain and support poorer students while cutting overall costs. Sadly, this is a typical tale of the previous Government's waste and the current Government having to mop up the mess.
	Much of the discussion has been about access, but I firmly believe that raising the school-leaving age to 18 by 2015 will address the issue. I want to concentrate mainly on looking at how best we can give money to students in genuine need. The system currently costs £565 million a year, at a time when, we all accept, the Government are short of money. We cannot pay for everything, so we have to find savings. Of those receiving the allowance, 10% have parents earning more than £25,000 a year, and 47% of those in full-time education are claiming it. Are we saying that all those people need it?
	The 18 October 2010 edition of  The Observer reported on a Local Government Association report published that month suggesting that 90% of those claiming did not need that benefit. That means that only £56 million gets into the pockets of the poorest in our society, whereas we want to increase discretionary payments to £78 million by 2015.

Karl Turner: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

David Morris: No, I am short of time.
	Under our proposals, poorer students in my constituency of Morecambe and Lunesdale will be better off, while we will save the taxpayer money. I thank the Secretary of State, who sadly is not here, for the £250,000 he recently put towards Morecambe college.
	EMA was a typical Labour scatter-gun approach: some people benefit, but money is given to many who do not need it. Of course students oppose our proposals, but they aim to support the poor and not give money to everyone who wants it. We must put dogma to one side, as the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) said, and sort this mess out where it counts. I believe that together we could do that constructively.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Dawn Primarolo: Order. Before calling the next speaker, I must inform Members that-would Members please resume their seats?-52 of them still wish to speak. To be fair, and to try to call them all, I will reduce the time limit to six minutes. I hope that they will bear it in mind when speaking that many Members wish to contribute.

Gerald Kaufman: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. This happens again and again. We are given a restricted time limit, and in the course of the debate it is reduced. One reason why is that the two Front-Benchers' speeches took 50 minutes and 46 minutes. If Front Benchers, taking interventions again and again, are going to reduce the opportunities of Back Benchers to make speeches of reasonable length, we ought to look at the whole system, because it is unacceptable to reduce the length of speeches in the course of a debate.

Dawn Primarolo: Sir Gerald, I understand your frustration and anger at the reduction in the time limit. As you will know, it is beyond the power of the Chair to curtail the opening speeches or to prevent Members making interventions in the first place when they have their name down to speak in that very debate, but I am sure that other Members will want to take up your point with the Procedure Committee. It is not a matter for me, however. I am trying, with this debate, to be as fair as I possibly can, and even with six minutes not every Member who has asked to speak will be called before the winding-up speeches. I am afraid that I can do nothing more at this stage, but I will certainly draw the issue to the Speaker's attention.

Robert Flello: I shall endeavour to take less than six minutes, and I shall not take any interventions. I urge colleagues who do want to make a point, however, to raise it during the winding-up speeches. I very much agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) about how-by ten-minute rule Bills and other things of that nature, too-these debates are curtailed.
	I have just turned to page 30 of my list of broken Tory promises to look at where we are up to so far, and sadly the book still has many pages to go. The footnotes refer to, "We're all in this together", yet the burden continues to fall on children, young people and those on the lowest incomes. The burden that falls on the bankers is a bonus of £2 million-plus. That's justice, that's fair-I don't think. I am very interested to hear what Government Front Benchers have to say about where the burden falls. I am sure that they will duck that question, given that they have become so good at ducking.
	What example are our young people being set by the Education Secretary and the Prime Minister? What fine role models they are. The sixth-form student's claim that the dog ate his homework seems positively saintly in comparison with what we keep hearing, so let us look at why the Tory-led Government are scrapping EMA.
	The decision is based on dodgy guesswork. There is an assumption of 90% dead-weight, but let me just pause on "dead-weight". Are we seriously describing 90% of our young people as dead-weight? That is atrocious and absolutely abhorrent. Using that phrase, as we seemingly must, I suggest that the figure might have some credibility if the report were based on more than a handful of respondents to a survey that excluded college students and heard from predominantly white respondents. The figures also vary according to how much EMA the respondents receive, so it is hardly surprising to find that those who receive the lowest amount, those who do not receive it at all and those who are not sixth-form students might have gone to college anyway. It is not surprising that we have such a speculation.
	I shall look at Stoke-on-Trent specifically. Our city, which has been referred to already, was one of the first pilot areas, and the results have been dramatic, with an impressive increase in the staying-on rate from 56% to 85%. Students have a choice of various excellent options, including the sixth-form college, many high school sixth forms and the excellent further education college, but that choice will be taken away with the removal of EMA, because students will have to attend whichever college or school is closest to their home, assuming that they can afford to go to one at all. That is because Stoke-on-Trent, unlike other cities in this country, is in the unique position of being not concentric but longitudinal, which means that getting from north to south or east to west is not simply a case of jumping on a single bus. Despite the improved bus service in Stoke-in-Trent that has developed over the past decade, more than one bus journey is still required. At the moment, students can use their EMA to travel around the city to go to the sixth form or college that provides the courses that best suit their requirements, but that choice will be taken away from them.
	EMA is very important to students in Stoke-on-Trent, with 55% of students at the sixth-form college alone receiving it at the higher level. In the light of all the challenges that our city has faced, education is rightly held up as being the best way for it to grow and to move forward.
	Some of the students to whom I have spoken will be looking for part-time jobs to enable them to study, but where are these mythical jobs? The December 2010 employment figures for Stoke-on-Trent, released today, show rising unemployment in the city, and the job cuts flowing from this Government's reckless handling of the economy spell even tougher times ahead. Even if students manage to get part-time jobs, that can have an adverse effect on their studies, with homework and assignments not done because of work commitments. What of the student who says, "You know what, I can't afford the student fees under this Tory Government, and there'll be no jobs, so I'll just sign on instead." We are seeing yet another wasted generation under a Tory Government, as in the 1980s. They just cannot help themselves, can they? In fact, never mind the 1980s-I sometimes think they are trying to take us back to the 1880s. What of the students who are part way through their courses? How cruel to pull the rug from under the feet of such vulnerable young people.
	Let us look at the economic case. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that the costs of EMA are completely offset by rising participation and other benefits. One of the costs of scrapping EMA is that jobseeker's allowance suddenly looks a lot more attractive. This cruel and unfair decision to steal away EMA is based on dodgy data and a flawed economic case.
	Sadly, I am having to skip to the end of my speech. [Hon. Members: "Oh!"] I apologise-I can hear the groans of disappointment. The catalogue of broken promises goes on and on. The weight of the burden of debt repayment continues to fall on the shoulders of the youngest and poorest members of our society, and Government Members should be ashamed of themselves.

Dan Rogerson: I, too, will attempt to keep my remarks brief to allow as many hon. Members to speak as possible.
	The hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), the former Chair of the Select Committee, talked about the tough choices that face the Government. I welcome that, because although he has come to a different conclusion-he suggested bigger class sizes-at least it shows that he is thinking about these ideas and putting forward alternatives. Perhaps he has a firmer grasp on reality than his Front Benchers, who seem to be ignoring the pressures and pretending that we are living in an ideal world.
	I certainly do not want to see changes that would lead to what Labour Members are intimating, which is that all the young people who could receive EMA will suddenly find themselves unable to go into post-16 education, but I do not believe that that will happen. Many young people are fighting hard to stay in education and to take the opportunities that are available to them, and there needs to be support for them in the form of the advanced fund that the Government propose. Support also needs to be given by working with local authorities to get them to face up to their statutory responsibilities to provide access.

Alison Seabeck: I thank the hon. Gentleman for mentioning the advanced fund. A constituent of mine who has two disabled children at City college Plymouth is unsure whether she will fall within the remit of that fund. Does he share her concern, and does he agree that it would have been helpful to see exactly what its criteria are before having this debate?

Dan Rogerson: The debate was called by Opposition Front Benchers. Perhaps if they had waited until we had that information, we could have had a more informed debate, but that was their decision.
	EMA has undoubtedly made a difference to some people. The important thing is that whatever replaces it reaches those young people and keeps them in education, and empowers people who are in a similar situation in future. It is also clear that there are issues with EMA and examples of it not working, some of which were referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke). It is right for the Government to consider doing something slightly different, and I hope that that is better at reaching people and makes a difference to those who have not received the support that they need.
	We are in an incredibly tough financial situation. It would be far easier for the Government, in terms of popularity, to ignore that, as the Opposition seek to do, and to carry on borrowing to fund spending that there is no money to meet, but we have chosen not to do that and to face up to some of these things. It is right for the Government to open up this issue and explore it, and for my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) to work on it and discuss ways forward.

Stephen Williams: One issue that needs to be looked at, which we pressed the Labour Government to address on many occasions, is the anomaly that those who are eligible for free school meals receive them if they are in school, but those who go to sixth-form or FE college at 16 do not. I was potentially in that situation when I was at school. The Labour party refused repeatedly to address that anomaly in the previous Parliament, so we should take some of its anxiety with a pinch of salt.

Dan Rogerson: I welcome my hon. Friend's contribution. Some crucial issues have been raised, including those on food and the cost of living as people continue their studies. I will come back to those in the questions that I ask the Minister.
	Transport is a big issue in rural constituencies such as mine. Many students stay on in the excellent school sixth forms and others explore different opportunities, such as travelling to the fantastic Cornwall college, which is dispersed across the peninsula of Cornwall. Its excellent chief executive officer is concerned about what may happen because of the proposed changes to EMA. I welcome his contribution in talking to the Education Committee about those concerns. The fact is that changes and cuts in spending are needed, and the Government have decided to focus the money on the kind of early intervention that the Secretary of State spoke about.
	I want to put some questions to the Minister on his deliberations about what will replace EMA. First, will he assure that House that he will work with other Departments, as well as considering the resources at his disposal, on issues such as transport; access to higher education, which is the responsibility of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills; and how local authorities can do more to help young people, which should be discussed with the Department for Communities and Local Government and the Local Government Association? The issue of free school meals is also important, and has been raised by several hon. Members. I would welcome his comments on that.
	Will the Minister ensure that in the discussions that he and colleagues have with local authorities, the availability of transport is considered? We are not talking about a token provision of resources that will allow some people to access transport. In some rural areas, the existing network of buses will just not get people there in time. That needs to be addressed.
	The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole raised the issue of young carers and young people in care who need extra support. It would help if strong guidelines were set up for these funds to ensure that such groups are protected and given every support that they need to access education. Those people need it the most. Action for Children raised that problem and suggested those guidelines in its briefing.
	If there is to be a discretionary element, with college and school principals being able to consider how resources should be used locally to achieve access, we should ensure that there are clear guidelines about equality of access. For example, if two students apply to a college, one of whom looks likely on the basis of past performance to achieve grades that mean it will be good for the college to have them on board, and one of whom will need extra support to achieve such grades, the college should consider their home situation, where they live and so on rather than just their academic attainment. We need such safeguards in place.

David Blunkett: Your constituency, Madam Deputy Speaker, mine and Nottingham North were identified 10 years ago as having the lowest staying-on rates and the lowest levels of access to higher education in the country. The evidence of the Higher Education Funding Council for England demonstrated that the barriers to staying on, including income disadvantage and cultural barriers, needed to be addressed, and that we needed a transformation of aspiration in schools. That transformation has taken place in my constituency, as it has across the country. There has been a 15 percentage point increase there, and a 20 percentage point rise overall, in young people staying on at 16, and there has been a transformation in the most deprived parts of the constituency.
	When Sir Robert Ogden, a business man and philanthropist, first introduced bursaries in the mid-1990s in the south Yorkshire coalfield areas, he was, as my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) described, addressing the cultural barriers to young people staying on in education. He was addressing the culture in the community and the family as well as the attitudes of schools and young people. On that basis I was proud to introduce the education maintenance allowance pilots and subsequently the whole scheme, with the support of the then Chancellor. Of course improvements could be made to it, but it has literally transformed the life chances of children.
	Children at the moment are currently the disadvantaged and unlucky generation. Child trust funds have been abolished; Sure Start ring-fencing has been lifted and cuts made to the scheme; Aimhigher has gone; youth and career services have been decimated; entitlement funds, which very few people have heard of, are being done away with; the future jobs fund has been abolished at a time of 20% youth unemployment, which is a catastrophe for young people and their families across the country; university fees are being trebled; and now the EMA is going too, including for young people who are already receiving it. That is a terrible blow for them and their families.
	Yes, we do have a structural deficit, but by the time of the June emergency Budget it happened to be £10 billion less than had been projected in the Budget the previous March. There has been an increase in Government income above and beyond the result of the measures that the Government have taken, not least from north sea oil and the fuel escalator. We have substantially more money than expected coming in, but there are major cuts, each of them being justified by the same deficit reduction strategy. That means that any cut to any budget at any time can be justified simply by referring to the deficit.
	Let us consider what we might have done instead. We could have included post-16 child benefit in assessable, taxable income. That would have been much fairer than cutting the EMA, but would still have been universal. We certainly cannot rely on the expansion of the discretionary learner scheme, because one sixth form in an affluent area receives as much for eight pupils as Longley Park college in my constituency does for 937. In other words, it is completely skewed.
	For Gemma Darlow-she has given permission for me to use her name-whose parents were faced with eviction because her mum lost her job, for Yasin Yusuf, who is now at Sheffield Hallam university having come from Somalia, for Jade Fletcher and for Bianca-Jade Titchmarsh, the transformation in their lives, which they have told me about, is testament enough to why it is necessary to maintain the EMA in some form, with a massive expansion in the £75 million currently planned. Some £4.2 million is needed for Sheffield college and Longley Park sixth-form college students alone, never mind the sixth forms in the most affluent areas. That is why the National Foundation for Educational Research material should not be misused; it took more account of those going through to school sixth forms than of those going to sixth-form college and FE college-a sector which, as was rightly said earlier, is the Cinderella of the education system.
	We desperately need to get the message across that there can be a solution, because the abolition of EMA is bad for young people and families, bad for social mobility, and bad for the local and national economy. It is unfair and unfocused, and it will lead to the exact reverse of what everybody in this House preaches, which is improvement in staying on, attainment and the future of our country.

Steven Baker: I begin by paying tribute to Mr Callum Morton, the president of the students union at Amersham and Wycombe college, where about a third of the students receive EMA. He has made his case with great force and maturity, and I am sure that Amersham and Wycombe students will agree that he has served them well.
	I should like to address the case advanced by the Opposition. The shadow Secretary of State said that Government Members had no real idea what EMA recipients' lives are like, but how would any of us know? Members on both sides of the House may naturally radiate youthful beauty, but not too many are aged between 16 and 18. What about income? If hon. Members look at the much quoted Institute for Fiscal Studies website and enter their salary into a tool called "Where do you fit in?" they will find that they are in the top 3% of the income distribution of this country. My salary now is just my parliamentary salary, and I will take no lectures on having a silver spoon and particular privileges from those who are on the same income. How are any of us to understand, as the shadow Secretary of State asked, what it is really like to be in receipt of EMA?

Emily Thornberry: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Steven Baker: No, thank you.
	In the end, each of us must read our correspondence and try to walk in the shoes of our constituents. I will therefore take no lectures from those who pretend that they have some special connection to a particular group.
	I shall not bore the House with my own background, but I would certainly have qualified for EMA when I was a sixth-former. How did I cope? The answer is that I coped with a mixture of commercial sponsorship and weekend work. I listened to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello). We must wonder where the jobs will come from, but there is case for saying that people should look to themselves.
	Further to the comments made about being out of touch, I must tell Opposition Members that a breadwinner on the minimum wage would work about six hours to earn that £30. None of us should take for granted the importance of what amounts to the best part of a day's pay. Are we out of touch? Certainly not.
	Opposition Members like to believe that some infinite pool of funds can be dipped into at will, which is certainly not the case. The measure cannot be considered in isolation. We must bear in mind that whatever we spend must be taxed or borrowed, or indeed debased. It is absolutely wrong to attempt to bribe 16 to 18-year-olds with their own money at interest, as Opposition Members have sought to do.
	One hon. Gentleman suggested that we were going back to the 1880s, but I am afraid that that is facile. A paper from the Centre for Policy Studies, "A shower, not a hurricane", showed that from the top level of spending, all we shall be doing in five years is going back to the real levels of 2009. That is the tragedy of Labour's profligacy. Labour left us in such a situation that just mitigating the worst of its spending excesses is causing thoroughgoing misery across the country, and yet we are only going back to 2009.
	I will not talk about the waste in the programme as I am running out of time, but I am happy to be able to inform the House that I have had frequent discussions with the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning about social mobility and aspiration and the role of further education in helping people to enjoy social mobility, and I have discovered that, like me, the Minister came from an ordinary background, and that, like me, he has a ferocious passion to help people from ordinary backgrounds get on, go to university and make the most of their lives. It seems to me that Opposition Members are determined to oppose every change in isolation, without regard to the context of this country's situation. They are putting the worst possible construction on every Government policy, and that is simply not fair to a dedicated and passionate Minister.
	What has upset me most about the debate is that the shadow Secretary of State has sought to sow fear and despair and to write off young people. It is not for the shadow Secretary of State to tell young people that they should not aspire. He has suggested that the Government's policy is robbing them of their future, but I say no. Rather, I echo his words to every single 16 to 18-year-old and everyone who might be about to go into further education: "Believe in yourself, because you do matter, and yes, do dare to dream, whoever you are."

Gerald Kaufman: I represent one of the most deprived constituencies in the country. Today's unemployment figures show that my Gorton constituency has an unemployment rate of 9%. Very few jobs will be available for those who are going to be thrown on to the streets by the Government's decision today, particularly when we take into account the huge job cuts that have been forced on Manchester city council by the grossly disproportionate Government cuts in local government funding for Manchester and other needy areas.
	I have come to the Chamber to speak in this debate because the principal of Xaverian college in my constituency, just around the corner from where I live, wrote to me in a tone of huge anxiety and agitation about what the Government are doing. I also received a letter from the assistant principal of Loreto college in Manchester, a constituent of mine, who wrote that
	"the EMA has been the most significant Government instrument to encourage marginalised and vulnerable sixteen year olds to remain in education."
	I do not know whether these people vote Labour or Conservative-I cannot imagine that they are stupid enough to vote Liberal Democrat-but whichever way they vote, they contacted me because of educational issues.
	In order to understand what is going to happen to the 300,000 young people whose EMA will be cancelled part way through their course, we can return to the letter from the assistant principal of Loreto. He wrote:
	"the loss to our economy will be measurable, and further I believe that it is in no one's interest to have disaffected young people on the streets."
	The Government have decided to do this. They have chosen to do it; it has not been forced on them. They could have dealt with the bankers, with bankers' bonuses and with a host of other issues, but instead they chose to do this, for socially discriminatory reasons. Some 66% of those on full EMA are from single-parent families, and 21% of those on EMA are living with both parents.
	This proposal is also racially discriminatory. Some 84% of Bangladeshis receiving EMA and 70% of those of Pakistani heritage who do so receive the full EMA. They use it for all kinds of utterly essential reasons. We must also note that the participation rate in higher education in disadvantaged areas is only 19%.
	Thanks to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), young people who are on EMA miss fewer courses, are more likely to stay in education, are socially responsible and have good achievements at their colleges. EMA has made all of those things possible, and this Government are going to take it away from them for socially discriminatory reasons based on the kind of Government they are.
	Let us be clear that we are looking at a Government who cut money and cut benefits right across the spectrum of those who can least stand it. Members of this Government have never needed these benefits. They abolished the health in pregnancy grant, which Ministers have never needed. They abolished child trust funds, but Ministers have inherited wealth. They reduced the scope of Sure Start, but Ministers have never needed Sure Start. They are scrapping 500,000 school meals. How many Ministers in this Government have had to get free school meals for their kids? They are interfering with housing benefit, but they live in affluent owner-occupation, in houses that, often, they have inherited. They are taking away social housing rights from our constituents-a huge proportion of my constituents live in social housing-but Ministers have never had to worry about the kind of house they will live in and their right to go on living there.
	The Government could have decided on other polices. This callous and heartless Government are the most right wing since the 1930s. They are targeting the weakest when they could have gone for the strongest. The Government could have gone for Sir Philip Green, with his tax-dodging in Monte Carlo, and Lord Ashcroft-but no, those people get away scot-free. It is the poor, the deprived, those in single-parent households and the ethnic minorities that this Government go for. That tells us what the Liberal Democrats and the Conservatives are really like. Oldham made a judgment about it last week, and the rest of the country will do the same as soon as it gets the opportunity.

Andrew Percy: The one thing that I have grown to dislike since I came to this place is the entrenchment that always appears in debates on this subject, and the previous speaker gave an example of that. Nobody comes into politics to target the weak or the poor deliberately; we may have disagreements about how we assist those who need support and in what form it is given, but nobody comes into this place with those aims and those desires. The one thing that I gave really grown to dislike about this Chamber since my election is the constant view that everybody on one side is elitist and determined to attack the poor, and everybody on the other side is virtuous and has only the best interests of their constituents at heart. I like to think that most people come here with the best of intentions for their constituents, even if we disagree about the way in which we get there. That is how I approach this debate.
	I am not interested in the politics of this debate in the slightest. I know that there will be people on both sides who will try to hit each other across the head with the politics, but that is not of any interest to me. All I want from this debate are some answers on what we will replace EMA with and what support will be in place for the young people who most need it. I have read both the motion, much of which is perfectly reasonable, and the amendment, which I have no problem with because it talks about supporting young people who are most in need of this help. It is a shame that we have had to get into such a divisive debate.
	My view on EMA has changed over the years. The trials started three years after I left sixth-form college, and I recall thinking when EMA was introduced that I had funded my way through sixth-form college by getting a job at McDonald's. That was my approach to begin with, and I believe that many Members still think like that. However, I then got into the teaching profession and started to see the impact of some of the support. Over time, I started to realise that doing as I had done is not a sustainable way for many people to fund their further education from 16 to 18, and that it is not a possibility for many people-it certainly is not since the changes in employment legislation. Although those changes have advantaged part-time workers, they have in some ways made it harder for teenagers to get part-time jobs.
	EMA has therefore been positive in many ways. There have been a lot of problems with it, but it has been positive and has certainly raised participation. I personally never agreed with the raising of the compulsory participation age to 18.

Julian Sturdy: My hon. Friend is making some good points. Surely the key component to any post-16 education should be a focus on accessibility and choice, which he has already mentioned, but is not the best way to improve accessibility and choice through targeted funding, which is what we are talking about? If we get better targeted funding, we can get better accessibility.

Andrew Percy: My hon. Friend makes a sensible point, with which I would not disagree, but it is also about what size of pot is available to provide that targeted supply. I have no problem with targeted support-so long as the pot is big enough.
	I was mentioning some of the advantages of EMA. It has certainly raised participation and it has also raised attendance. I do not believe the figure of 90%. "Dead-weight" is an unfortunate word to use. We are saying not in any way that young people are the dead-weight, but that there might be some dead-weight in the system.

Yasmin Qureshi: rose -

Andrew Percy: I will give way one last time.

Yasmin Qureshi: I am grateful. The hon. Gentleman said that he did not accept that there has been a 90% take-up rate. In my constituency, 934 young people at Bolton sixth-form college receive EMA-75% of the college intake, which is the third largest in the country-while 1,188 people at Bolton community college are taking up EMA. For those young people and those colleges even to function, the continuation of EMA is vital.

Andrew Percy: I was questioning not the take-up rate but the study apparently showing that 90% of young people would have continued with their studies without it. From my own limited experience in the education field, I certainly do not believe that to be true. We should not get too hung up on that.
	In my intervention on the Secretary of State, I mentioned that I represent some very deprived communities in Goole, which certainly need support, and some largely rural areas that also require it. It is a shame, as I said, that our local council has made it more difficult for young people in the north Lincolnshire part of my constituency by raising the cost of their travel passes by 500% in one year and again in subsequent years. As I said to the Secretary of State, I hope that whatever replaces EMA will take into account those costs.
	I also try to take account of the views of local colleges on this issue. There is Goole college-a small college in my constituency-but most of the young people in my patch have to travel into Scunthorpe or go to colleges in Hull, Selby or York. All those colleges have written to me, asking for support to continue in some form and requesting more information on what will replace EMA. They advanced a powerful case for how EMA support has enhanced not only attendance and participation, but the commitment of young people to their studies.
	I confess that I am not so obsessed about whether the replacement of EMA stays in the same form, as there have been some negatives, which I saw as a practitioner. I once did a period of supply teaching in a private school. That was not really me, although the kids were wonderful. One kid there was receiving EMA through certain mechanisms, but I did not think that that was right by any stretch of the imagination. A young lad came to my surgery not so long ago who complained about not getting EMA despite the fact that his friends were-

Tessa Munt: rose -

Andrew Percy: I am not giving way any more, as others want to speak.
	The lad came to see me because he was not getting EMA, yet his friends who were getting it were also receiving a great deal of support from their parents. It is not a perfect system. Similarly, a lady came to see me who, despite having five jobs as a cleaner, does not receive EMA for her children. She could not understand why other people living in the same houses in the same streets who enjoy the same quality of life and drive the same kind of cars and go on the same kind of holidays are receiving it for their children. There certainly need to be some changes.
	As I said at the outset, my concern is not about maintaining a national model, but about ensuring that support is in place that truly supports our young people. I would like to hear more information from Ministers about how big the pot is going to be. There is an argument not so much for a strict national model-I am certainly not in favour of that, as it puts everybody in a straitjacket-but at least for a sign that certain principles will automatically be taken into account as colleges and their administrative institutions make their decisions. That also means that the pot has to be big enough. It is no good removing the EMA and not replacing it with a pot big enough to support the young people who so desperately need it. I urge Ministers, when they sum up and respond to the debate, to give us more advice on that.
	Similarly, I say to Opposition Members that, like the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), I hope we can work together, because we should all have the same aim of supporting the young people who most need it. I wish we could take the politics out of this issue and get some agreement. We are in a difficult situation financially-everyone knows that tough decisions have to be taken-and the Government are doing some very good things in that regard. I would like us to lose the politics a little and work together to find a system. I would vote for any system that would guarantee young people, such as those it has been my privilege to teach, the support they desperately need to stay in further education.

John Robertson: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy)-what a great name for a Conservative constituency that is. If ever there was a greater name than Goole, I do not know it.
	I was brought up by my mother, my sister and my grandmother-my father died when I was three-so going into further education and following on into university was not an option for me. I knew that as soon as I finished school, I would be going to work. Fortunately, back in 1969, in the Harold Wilson days, we had near-enough full employment and getting a job was not a problem. The company I was employed by, where I worked for 31 years, sent me into further education. I would like to thank Langside college and Stow college for the education they gave me, which helped me to become the person I am today, eventually ending up in this place.
	I never attended university but I do not consider that to be a loss to me, although I have aspirations for my children and my grandson, who I hope will have that kind of education. I certainly want to make sure that people get the same opportunity to get that education, whether they fall on the rich side or the poor side of society. I disagree with the previous speaker about targeting the weak and using politics, because I do not have a problem with targeting people or politics. I would like to use my politics to make sure that we do target, but that we target the poor. We should target the people who need to be targeted and make sure that they get that help. We should make sure that we supply the money that gets them into education, including the further education that we have fought so hard for over the years. When I left school, only 7% of people went to university; the figure is now approaching 50%, but not for long-not with that crowd in charge. It will not take long for the figure to go back down, but I hope it will never get below double figures.
	I have had opportunities. People might think it strange for a Glasgow MP to speak on this subject, but I got involved in EMAs before the general election. I had an Adjournment debate then, and I have had one since. When my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), who is in his place, responded to the first debate, he guaranteed that if Labour won the election not only would it look after those people but EMA would be maintained for the length of the next Parliament. In the following Adjournment debate, the Minister of State, Department for Education, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), who is also in his place, writing feverishly, dispelled that notion right away. All the promises that were made before the general election by the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Education have been broken. The breaking of those promises affects the people I believe we are here to represent-those who cannot vote, who are looking to people like us to promote them and make sure that they get the education and proper start in life that some of us did not get.
	What do we have now? In Scotland, we have a system that pays only the £30 rate and we have now found out that because the £10 and £20 rates have been done away with, about 8,000 students will not be students. They will be lost to the further education system in Scotland, thanks to a Scottish National party Government who did away with the allowance. They only kept the £30 rate because an election is coming up and the Labour party is so far ahead in the polls. We said we would keep the allowance, so the SNP had to match it-I do not care how or why they do it, just as long as they do it.
	The Conservatives thought they would be coming into power alone. They did not. As for the other party, some Liberal Democrats would sell their soul to get into power; others sold their soul once they got into power. Those are the kind of people we have to deal with. Labour Members have to stand up and fight for the rights of the people out on the streets. Do the Government honestly believe that those young people out in the streets are there for fun? Do they honestly believe that those young people want to be herded and corralled just because they are demonstrating? Those young people think they have rights, and I believe we all-on both sides of the House-fought to give them those rights. Apart from the idiots and the malcontents, the proper students out there demonstrating should be listened to; they are our future and we should give them the chance to move on.
	I am nearing the end of the time and I did not even use the speech I prepared-I do not even know why I wrote it. The Government took the flawed view that 90% of young people did not need the money. That is a lie. We know it is a lie. The Government should take a proper look and make a proper assessment of the people who now have EMA and what will happen to them if they no longer have it, and then tell us that the number should be reduced by 90%.

Paul Maynard: It ought to be a pleasure to discuss in the Chamber ways in which we can overcome barriers to access to further and higher education. It ought to be a pleasure to discuss how I can tackle the deprivation in my constituency, but sadly, having sat here for most of the afternoon, I can conclude only that debate in the House has ceased to be a pleasure. The discourtesy and personal rudeness from Opposition Members demonstrates why Parliament and this Chamber have lost credibility in the eyes of people outside.
	It is extremely important that we discuss how to overcome barriers to accessing further and higher education, whether we believe that scrapping education maintenance allowance is the right way to do that, or whether there are alternatives that we can look at. EMA was introduced in 1998 in the comprehensive spending review as "an incentive" to encourage more people to stay in education. It was an experiment-a new departure for this country-and one I watched with interest.
	After a few years, the then Government decided it was time to try something else-to introduce compulsory education from 16 to 18. Young people were to be obliged to stay in education until the age of 18, so why would we want to continue with an incentive to do something that would become compulsory? Indeed, we are supporting the aspiration of the previous Government to expand compulsory education. We have increased the budget for 16-to-19 education by 1.15%. We are funding an extra 62,000 places in the 16-to-19 sector. I am disappointed that the Labour party does not feel able to support that and would rather retain EMA-an instrument that I believe, the more I discuss it with people in my constituency, is a blunt one.
	I object strongly to EMA for a number of reasons, which I hinted at in my intervention on the shadow Secretary of State. The allowance is capped at £30 a week. It is related solely to household income, yet I speak to many people in my constituency who are eligible for EMA but whose needs far exceed £30 a week. If we listened to the Opposition, we would think that EMA was the answer to every social problem.

Chuka Umunna: If £30 is not enough for people in the hon. Gentleman's constituency, why is the solution simply to take it all away? I am not sure that I follow his line of argument.

Paul Maynard: The hon. Gentleman's intervention demonstrates why he should have been in the Chamber earlier to listen to the debate- [ Interruption. ] He was not here when I made my intervention. The hon. Gentleman asks a question, however, so I am happy to explain. Rather than having an education maintenance allowance that is capped at £30 a week, it would be far better to have a discretionary learner support fund sited in the college that the pupil attends, where the principal and teachers best understand the needs of that pupil and can therefore address their particular barriers. I do not accept that household income has any meaningful correlation with the barriers to accessing further education that someone faces.
	The hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna) pulls a face at me, so let me explain why. Blackpool and Fylde college is on Ashfield road in my constituency. Right at its front door is a large council estate where some of the most deprived residents in my constituency live. Do they have the same needs as someone in a slightly higher income bracket living two or three miles further up the road? They do not. Household income is not the indicator that must be examined when determining the barriers that must be overcome.
	The hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) who, like me, is a passionate defender of young carers, was right to point out that there are groups of young people who face complex hurdles if they are to access further education. I do not accept that the education maintenance allowance is the magic wand that Labour Members seem to believe it is. I join other Government Members who have asked for further information about what form the discretionary learner support fund will take and how it will enable those with complex needs to access further education, because it is vital that they do so.
	Labour Members cannot keep simply backing structures rather than people. It is horrifying that, in a modern democracy, we have a Labour party that still likes to think that it can keep people under its thumb, say, "You'll get £30 a week and no more; we're going to keep you where you are," and then expect people to be grateful. I want a further and higher education system in which all people can participate without being restricted by a barrier of £30 a week and no more. The discretionary learner support fund will enable an individual student's needs to be properly assessed and met, because we will focus on what the need really is, not on the mythical universal provision for which the Labour party hanker, albeit not because Labour Members wish to support their constituents any more. I have never before seen a political party further from the people whom it seeks to represent or that has so forgotten the people from whom it allegedly came.

Roberta Blackman-Woods: Who is being rude now?

Paul Maynard: I am sorry that the hon. Lady says that, but I can say only what I observe in the Chamber. I am saddened that democracy has reached such a level.
	I am running out of time, but I leave hon. Members with this thought: in this day and age, we need to ensure that every person who wishes to go into further education is able to do so, and this Government will enable that.

Lisa Nandy: I want to address the question of the impact of EMA head-on. Three colleges in my constituency-St John Rigby college, Wigan and Leigh college and Winstanley college-have approached me to oppose the scrapping of EMA, and there is clear evidence that EMA has had a considerable impact by attracting young people into education and persuading them to stay on. Such evidence comes from not just Wigan, but throughout the country. The view is shared by the Association of Colleges, and it is borne out by research from the Learning and Skills Council and the CfBT Education Trust. That evidence shows that EMA not only attracts young people into education, but when they are there, spurs them on to succeed and achieve. I am therefore disappointed-but not surprised-that the Secretary of State has chosen to base the decision on one unrepresentative and deeply flawed study. It leads me to wonder whether the decision was made a long time before any evidence was considered.
	I want to echo some of the concerns have been raised about the language that we bandy about, such as "dead-weight." The term is deeply offensive to the thousands of young people out there who are so concerned about their future. I urge hon. Members, if they are not prepared to support them, at least to show them some respect when they talk about them and their future.
	Ministers have missed the point about EMA. It did not just encourage people into education and get them to stay there, but said to students that they should be able to learn without suffering extreme hardship. The vast majority of students who claim EMA do so for travel and food. Are we seriously saying in 2011 that the extent of our ambition for a generation of young people is telling them that if they walk long distances and go hungry they can have the same opportunities as some of their more privileged peers? It is a poor ambition and I am ashamed that we even have to debate it.
	It was a sign of confidence in our young people that the previous Government said, "We will give you that money, and we will trust you and leave how you spend it up to you." The Government talk a lot about getting rid of centralised prescription. Why will they not show the same confidence in young people as us when we were in government?
	At the heart of the debate is the question whether EMA is necessary. I tell Ministers that it has become an essential part of household income. If they are serious about getting people to stay on in education until they are 18 by raising the participation age, which I support, they are making a big mistake in removing the mechanism whereby young people can do that.
	I urge Ministers again to consider the impact on looked-after children, homeless young people and young carers. I know that they are concerned about that, and I urge them to meet a young person, Shinea, who lives in a homeless hostel run by the charity Centrepoint, for which I had the privilege of working many years ago. Shinea is entirely on her own. She exists on benefits and EMA, and she is trying hard and doing her best. I ask Ministers to meet her before they make a decision that will wreck her chances for good.
	The EMA was never just an allowance. It was a contract between the state and young people, which said, "If you work hard and try hard, we will back you and support you, regardless of your background because we think you're worth it."

Roberta Blackman-Woods: Sixty-seven per cent. of young people aged 16 to 18 who attend New college in my constituency receive EMA, and 560 will lose the funding halfway through their course. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is disgraceful that they heard nothing from the Secretary of State today about whether they will receive any support in future and how much it will be?

Lisa Nandy: Apart from agreeing with my hon. Friend, I am also grateful to her for bringing me back to my point, which I had lost in my anger about the Government's decision. Shinea, the young person from Centrepoint, whom I urge Ministers to meet, is midway through her course, as are many young people in my constituency. I tell Ministers that the issue is pressing and needs to be resolved now. At Wigan and Leigh college, 75% of young people in their first year who get EMA say that they will have to drop out next year. I urge Ministers to make a decision and give clarity not only to those young people, but to the many who must decide now whether to go into further education and do not know whether they can afford it. Those young people said to me very clearly that they were told that if they worked hard and tried hard, they would get the EMA. They have kept their side of the bargain; they cannot understand why their Government will not keep their side.
	I went to Winstanley college and talked to some young people who are very concerned about the issue, and about tuition fees and the abolition of the Aimhigher initiative-concerned not for themselves, but for the young people who come after them. They told me they felt that their Government were not only not trying to help them, but were actively putting barriers in their way. The last time I heard young people talk like that was when I was growing up in the '80s and '90s, when the Conservative Government left an entire generation of young people without hope. It was devastating, and the Government are about to create exactly the same thing all over again. The progress made in the past 13 years is unravelling before our eyes. I urge hon. Members, before they walk through the Lobby, to think about their part in that.
	Finally, if colleagues will not be persuaded by the moral case, I ask them to be persuaded by the clear economic case. The EMA pumps millions into local economies, and the Institute for Fiscal Studies states clearly that the EMA is an investment in young people that will be recouped in the long term. It will pay for itself. It is precisely in such difficult economic times, with youth unemployment predicted to reach 1 million in the next few years, that we should be investing in our young people. We should be sending them the strong message that we value them, and that they matter to us.

Marcus Jones: Today we are discussing the important subject of the EMA, an extremely well-intentioned product of the previous Government that, at its most effective, helped young people to continue their education. At its worst, though, it is just another in a series of policies adopted by the previous Government with a lot of dead-weight. I am sorry if that offends the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), but we have to acknowledge that, in the case of many policies of the previous Government, a lot of money was spent and very little achieved, after a certain point. The EMA is one of those cases. It is one of the factors that led the previous Government to rack up such a large deficit for the country-a deficit that the coalition Government now have to sort out.
	I do not want to dwell on the debt argument, but it currently costs this country £564 million a year to provide the EMA for our young people. As I say, the scheme is well-intentioned, but when a policy lacks targeting and loses its focus, as the EMA seems to have done in certain ways, all we are doing is building up a credit card of debt for our young people. We are actually encumbering the generation that we are giving the EMA with a massive debt-and we are encumbering their children with huge debts, which they will be paying off, through higher taxes, for years to come. They will suffer reductions in service as a result of the debt interest that this country is paying.
	Any sensible Government would want a targeted scheme to allow young people to access further education. That is what I hope the current Government are trying to achieve. Rather than concentrate on the inputs, and tailoring the programme of support for young people on the basis of how much money we put in, we should first set a target for what we want to achieve and what outcomes we want, and then look at what money we need to support that programme. To that end, we need to look at the impediments to some of our younger people gaining access to further education. Gaining that access is a problem, in some ways, for many young people; 12% have clearly said that if they did not have some sort of financial support, they would not be able to continue their studies, which is certainly something that we need to address and overcome.
	I have two fantastic post-16 colleges in my constituency, King Edward VI college and North Warwickshire and Hinckley college. I have met a number of students at North Warwickshire and Hinckley college, and had a detailed discussion with them. Their biggest concern, and the biggest impediment that they saw to young people continuing their studies, was the issue of travel to and from college. That is something that we have to address, and not just for people from rural areas; it is a problem for people from urban areas as well.
	We also have to address the fact that, as has been mentioned from the Opposition Benches, during the current academic year many students have been used to receiving EMA and benefiting from it, especially for their travel. The Government must make sure that young people who have gone to college on that basis this year do not drop out next year. We need to clear up quickly what the system will be next year, to make sure that our young people make informed choices about their studies once they finish school this year.
	Many local authorities have reduced or stopped the discretionary travel supplement that used to be provided. One or two schemes are still available, but across the country many have disappeared. We need to look into that and see how, as a Government, we can help young people with their travel.
	Earlier, the shadow Secretary of State was rather derogatory to our young people, saying that it was not appropriate for them to do part-time work. That is not a concept that we have covered in the Chamber today. Part-time work is extremely important not just to earn money to provide things over and above those that young people need for their education, but to help young people develop soft skills to bridge the gap between education and employment. I speak to many people in commerce who say that younger people need the best soft skills they can get to integrate into the workplace. It is extremely important that that is encouraged in our further education system.
	To conclude, as I do not have much time, I wholeheartedly support the Government amendment, especially as it relates to travel, but I have concerns about how the new scheme will look and the amount of money to be put into it. I hope that tonight the Minister will dispel a few of those hares that have been running-

Dawn Primarolo: Order. Time is up.

Karen Buck: The decision to abolish EMA is an act of educational and social vandalism. It has caused huge distress and anger among young people, who do not see, as I do not see and the Opposition do not see, why they should carry a disproportionate burden of the deficit reduction strategy.
	We have heard from some speakers about early intervention, particularly in respect of young people. We all believe in the importance of making further progress on early intervention in the early years to pay off in 16 years' time. To abolish EMA is to do away with an early intervention that will pay off in two years, because EMA is a means of preventing young people from leaving school and failing to obtain the qualifications that will enable them to get jobs and go on into higher education. That will cost money. We know it will cost money, and we know from the IFS that there is research to confirm that measures that leave more young people unemployed and without qualifications will cost us in the short term-this year, next year and the year after. There is no economic case for the abolition of the education maintenance allowance.
	Has EMA worked? We hear from Ministers so often, "Let's devolve the responsibility to heads. Let's hear what is being said at a local level." Listen to my heads and to the principals of my further education colleges. They are saying, "Don't do this." Jo Shuter, the principal of Quintin Kynaston school, is an award-winning head teacher who has transformed a school that was extremely challenging a few years ago. She said to me that at a school where 84% of young people are on the education maintenance allowance in the sixth form, abolishing it will be extraordinarily damaging and will wreak havoc on her sixth form. She is not alone in saying that.
	The City of Westminster college, which I mentioned earlier, quoted the figure of 250 students this year, every year, who are obtaining qualifications, who were not staying on in school and obtaining qualifications without EMA. Those 250 pupils alone justify the expenditure on EMA. But EMA is not just about staying on into the sixth form, as we heard from many other speakers; it is about giving head teachers a tool to manage attendance and progress at school, and it is much valued for that. It is also about reducing the need for part-time employment. I agree with the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) that part-time work can be a valuable thing. I did it; many of us did it. I also know that in the school that my child attends, which took over from a failing secondary school where just 18% of pupils were obtaining 5 A to C GCSEs, that figure has now increased to 63%. The school did that with Saturday schools and sessions in the school holidays. It is a similar picture at Paddington academy and Westminster academy-some of the most deprived schools in the country.
	If we encourage pupils to lose their focus on their studies-another point emphasised by the principal of Quintin Kynaston-they will not work. It is all very well in the high-achieving schools, all very well for the pupils who do not need to be worrying about transforming their educational results, but it is not satisfactory in those schools that are on a journey, and which we know most need the improvements. We have heard from other speakers about how this impacts most severely on large families, on black and minority ethnic families, and on lone-parent families. The removal of EMA is not fair and it is not proportionate in its impact.
	I want to spend my last couple of minutes on a particular concern. The reduction of funding for a more targeted programme poses a real question about what we seek to achieve. Are we looking for that money to maintain the staying on at school rates in those groups of people who currently do not, or are we looking to provide additional financial assistance for those pupils who are most challenged? Two into one will not go. There are schools in my constituency where 80%-plus of pupils are on EMA. At City of Westminster college, 75% are on EMA.
	Last week, the principal of Westminster academy, which has been so transformed in recent years, told me that 60% of students who have been through the school-almost two thirds-have had multi-agency involvement from the mental health trust and the social services because they are children in need and at risk. That figure is extraordinary. How are we targeting resources to that school, and how will we leave that responsibility without imposing a cost and a burden on the head teachers and principals who will be deciding between all those competing claims-the students who are under financial pressure and that overwhelming number of school students who have challenging circumstances, such as mental health problems, children who are themselves homeless, children in families who are homeless, and children from families where the parents are in prison or have drug or alcohol or mental health problems? An invidious pressure is being put on those schools. It will increase costs and increase the burden, and without doubt it will result in fewer children obtaining educational qualifications, fewer children staying on and great hardship for the families who most need help.

David Ward: I thank the Labour party for initiating the debate. It is certainly a subject that warrants a debate. Between the wild statements that have at times been made by Members on both sides of the House, some useful points have come out, and they needed to.
	I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) for the work he has been doing. I may be privileged to know some of that more than others, but a lot more work still needs to be done, and I hope that he will come to Bradford and talk to us about the implications of the withdrawal of the education maintenance allowance. There is a lot more work to do, but my right hon. Friend has done enough for me for now. However, my continued support for his work is dependent on the success with which he deals with concerns that I and many hon. Members have about the proposals. The Labour motion is tempting, but it fails to recognise that although EMA has played a valuable role in supporting young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, it is very costly.

Karl Turner: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

David Ward: No, I will keep going. With or without a national economic crisis, the operation of EMA is far from perfect. Although they are not in the amendment to the motion, I welcome the comments that have been made on this side of the House about looking at whatever replaces EMA. The Labour motion mentions a rethink of the decision. Had it included a review of EMA, I probably would have supported it. We must look at the scheme and its weaknesses. I thank all those who have campaigned against the withdrawal of EMA, who have undoubtedly made a difference. I did not need convincing that a well thought through and adequately funded replacement was necessary.

Jeremy Corbyn: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

David Ward: No, I will keep going. I hope that we all start from the same standpoint: that we have made a social contract with young people and their parents to provide free education for those who want it up to the age of 18. When young people must decide at 16 what to do with the next couple of years of their life, the continuing benefit from that social contract is not available equally to everyone. I think we can also agree that as far as possible we want that decision to be completely unfettered by financial limitations. In plain English, I am sure we all agree that the respective costs, whether for apprenticeships, school, college or for going into employment, should not be allowed to distort and unduly influence the decision-making process.
	For those families that are sufficiently well off to be able to keep their child at school or college for a further couple of years, it is a straightforward options analysis: what is best for their son or daughter, what do they want to do with the rest of their lives and what are the local employment opportunities. For youngsters from low-income families, however, the options appraisal is often constrained because they cannot afford to stay in education without EMA.
	We have been told that 88% of young people from low-income families would stay on in education without EMA and that it is a dead-weight calculation. On that principle, if the Secretary of State was willing to do his job for two thirds of the salary, would that be a dead-weight? If people are still going to provide some food for their children when they go to school, does that mean that free schools meals are a dead-weight cost? There are so many ways one can look at that concept. I think the proposal shows, more than anything else, a failure to understand that it is not about EMA being so important in getting young people into a situation in which they can do what they want, but the experience of the people who would say, "Yes, we would do it even if it was not available."
	Young people from low-income families might face a more serious decision. Affluent families will say, "We'll put our kids through another two years of education, which might mean we go to Tenerife for 10 days rather than 14, or replace the car after four years instead of three." However, for many families that decision is about food and clothing, or whether to send the eldest or youngest child to college because they cannot afford to send both.
	Is that over-egging the pudding? In Bradford, 9,000 people receive EMA, 90% of whom receive the top rate, which means that they come from families that earn less than £21,000. We have already decided that anyone who earns less than that should not pay a penny off the student loan as a graduate, and that is not for households, but for individuals. So why are we not really looking at the consequences of the decision we are making on EMA? We need a thorough review. I welcome the work being done, but it must go much further if we are truly to support the new scheme, not only in terms of the content but with regard to the funds available.

John Cryer: There have been times this afternoon when, apart from losing the will to live while listening to speeches from Government Members, I thought I must have slipped through a glitch in the space-time continuum and landed on another planet. We have been told that, because £30 is too small an amount, we need to abolish EMA; and someone from a sedentary position on the Liberal Benches told us that because the Labour Government refused to extend school dinners, we should abolish EMA. I have heard many Liberal MPs speak. They in particular have an important decision to make, because when they talk about the 90% dead-weight they should worry not about offending us but about offending those people outside who are included in that 90%.
	Last week, I was at a meeting with about 120 students from throughout Britain and the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) indicated clearly that if the Opposition motion was moderately worded and-as I think he phrased it-sufficiently friendly, he would consider going into the Lobby to vote with us. It will be interesting to see whether he does, because if he does not he will have misled those students last week and others at other meetings over the past few weeks. He has a consistent record of doing so, and I shall be interested to hear what he says when he returns to the Chamber.
	I was under the impression that today's debate was about EMA, but according to the Secretary of State it is really about the economy, so let us get one or two facts straight. The real spark for the financial crisis was when BNP Paribas posted its figures on the north American market in autumn 2007. At that point, the British deficit was below 3% of GDP, which I mention because it is the figure in one of the convergence criteria written into the Maastricht treaty by Conservative Ministers, who at the time said that it was quite tight-but achievable. We achieved it year after year, as we did the 60% debt figure that is also in the criteria, but, after the events involving BNP Paribas, followed by Lehman Brothers and Northern Rock, the deficit had to mount because we had to intervene continually. That was the root of the financial crisis

Gavin Barwell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

John Cryer: I am not going to give way, because I am short of time.
	In my borough, I note that 63% of students at Leyton sixth-form college in my constituency receive EMA, and well over 1,000-1,100-receive the top rate of £30 a week. In the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Dr Creasy), who was in the Chamber earlier, 47% of students at Waltham Forest college receive EMA, and more than 800 are on the top rate. Those students and their college principals have told us not to get rid of EMA.
	Principals from other boroughs have said the same thing. Eddie Playfair, who has been on television and radio repeatedly over the past few weeks, lives in my constituency but is the head of Newham sixth-form college in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown). He has one of the highest numbers of students on EMA, and he has consistently said, "Don't get rid of it." My hon. Friend the Member for Westminster North (Ms Buck) said the same in her remarks, yet the Government say, "We know best; we're going to get rid of it."

Ian Lavery: Will my hon. Friend give way.

John Cryer: No, I will not, because I need to crack on.
	The "enhanced discretionary learner support fund"-if ever I heard an Orwellian phrase, that is it-is so far unclear. We have not been told how it will work, but we do know that funding will drop from half a billion-£575 million-a year to £75 million a year, and it is absolute fantasy to suggest that with such funding we will be able to cover all the students who need assistance. I have attended meeting after meeting with students, principals and lecturers, and they all say the same thing: "This will deter people, particularly from poorer backgrounds, from continuing in education." Yet the Government, and Liberal and Tory MPs, have engaged in a process of mendacity and misinformation, saying, "We'll work together and do our best to come up with some scheme that will actually work." The way to send a signal to the Secretary of State, however, is to join us in the Lobby tonight and vote for our motion.
	At a time when bankers' bonuses are being doled out to the tune of £7 billion, it is an obscenity to see a Government refusing to intervene with the banks yet at the same time taking money away from some of the poorest students in this country. However, there is one thing that we should be grateful for, and that is that the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister are managing to do what many of us have wanted to do for a long time by politicising a generation of students. I can promise the House that those students who are being politicised by the abolition of EMA and by the tuition fees debacle will not be voting Liberal Democrat and will not be voting Conservative.

Nadhim Zahawi: I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) and thank the Opposition for this debate on EMA. Historically, they have been vexed about how to pay for the scheme.
	If we are to have a credible debate today- [ Interruption. ] I apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker. My tie to support the campaign against bowel cancer was making that noise-it is a musical tie that the campaign was giving out.

Dawn Primarolo: Order. Perhaps next time the hon. Gentleman will be more selective in the ties that he wears in the Chamber, and then we will not need to have the musical accompaniment.

Nadhim Zahawi: Your words of wisdom are taken on board, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I apologise to you.
	If we are to have a credible debate, we must look at this issue in the round, and that means that we must look at the economic legacy we inherited from the previous Government. Our structural deficit is one of the largest in the world, and it is simply unsustainable. We are having to borrow £500 million a day. Every time we go to sleep and wake up in the morning, we rack up another £500 million. The debt interest-the money that we have to pay in interest to foreign banks and foreign countries to build their own hospitals and schools with-is £120 million a day, every single day.
	I come from a rural constituency with some areas that have no post-16 provision, so I am all too aware of the additional costs that students will have to bear. Shipston high school in my constituency has lobbied me very hard on this subject, as has Martin Penny, the head of Stratford-upon-Avon college-a fantastic institution in my constituency with 5,000 students and 450 staff. I addressed the students during the week of the tuition fees debate, and after we had cut through the misinformation they understood why we were having to make these decisions.

Charlotte Leslie: I apologise for missing the beginning of this very important debate.
	I thank my hon. Friend for setting out the economic realities. Does he agree that when there is a dire economic reality, the correct moral thing to do is not to bury our heads in the sand and carry on spending unsustainably, which will end up damaging the very people we want to protect because in the long term it will do the country no good, but to be really rigorous and focused in ensuring that the resources that we do have are absolutely focused on the most vulnerable?

Nadhim Zahawi: That is exactly right. In fact, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), when he was Prime Minister, hoped to pay for EMA by reducing the debt on the young people of this country.
	Transport is an important issue that was raised with me by Martin Penny from Stratford-upon-Avon college and has been aired by Members on both sides of the House. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) said, it is an issue not only for rural constituencies but for urban areas too. I am pleased that the Secretary of State has made some encouraging remarks about opening up the discretionary fund to allow such colleges as Stratford-upon-Avon college-which are best placed to judge because they are closest to students and their families-to target some of that money on those who most need it.
	In the spending review, the Government committed to refocus the support, because all the data show that the £560 million spent on EMA every year was not well targeted. I am pleased that the Secretary of State confirmed in his opening remarks that the Government will target the money towards those with special educational needs. I was a governor of a special educational needs school that was shut down by the previous Government and I know how important it would be to those families if the money was targeted in that way.
	I ran a research company for 11 years, and I am passionate about evidence-based strategy. The National Foundation for Educational Research report commissioned by the previous Government, which we have heard about today, found that almost 90% of young people who receive EMA would have completed their education or training course if they had not received it. In an interview, the shadow Secretary of State admitted that some of the money went towards students buying drinks and partying. He therefore probably agrees with me that the money is not well targeted. I see him leaning forward, and am happy for him to intervene.

Andy Burnham: I will intervene, because I did not say that, and I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman corrected the record. I said that young people should be able to play a full part in the life of the college. If that means trips to musical events, the theatre or political events in the evening, they should be supported to play a full part in them. I would be grateful if he was a bit more careful with his language in future.

Nadhim Zahawi: I thank the shadow Secretary of State, but let me quote him:
	"Yes, they may spend some of it on food and even the occasional time out with friends... But part of being in a college means taking part in the whole life of a college, and why should we say to young people from the least well-off backgrounds, well, 'you can't have those things'."
	That settles that one. We also know that almost 50% of students are in receipt of EMA. That fact demonstrates that it is not well targeted.
	In my old profession, when the research has been done and there is evidence for a strategy, if one does not like the findings, one should not throw them away and go into denial about them. Several Opposition Members have trashed the research because it does not suit their argument. As well as saying that he hoped to pay for the EMA through a reduction in debt, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath said that he would pay for it by scrapping post-16 child benefit. I wonder whether that will become Opposition policy.
	The Government have demonstrated their commitment, as we heard clearly today, to invest in the young people of our country. They are investing £7 billion in a fairness premium designed to support young people of all ages. The introduction of the all-age careers service will improve the information, advice and guidance that the National Foundation for Educational Research said needed to be improved. The Government are continuing to invest in providing apprenticeships, and have committed to improving the apprenticeship package so that level 3-the A-level equivalent-becomes the level to achieve.
	In government, tough choices have to be made. We on the Government Benches have made those tough choices. We have chosen to safeguard spending on the national health service and education. I urge the Opposition, if they want to have a constructive debate, also to safeguard the national health service and education.

George Howarth: Unfortunately, I do not think I will be able to compete with the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi) as regards our ties, but I rather hope that I will surpass the arguments that he made.
	Before I get into the meat of my argument, I wish to express a debt of gratitude to Frank Gill, the principal of Knowsley community college, of which I am a governor; to the director of children's services in Knowsley, Damian Allen; and to Jette Burford, the principal of Hugh Baird college in Bootle, which some students from my constituency attend.
	The points that I wish to make have been shaped by a number of conversations and briefings that I have had, but also by a very interesting meeting that I had last year with some students at All Saints centre for learning in Kirkby, in my constituency. They talked about their hopes and aspirations and said that EMA had been a help to them and would continue to be. They also expressed their concern about the reduction in spending on Aimhigher, which had inspired some of them to go to university when they had not previously thought it possible.
	The Secretary of State seems to have three arguments about EMA and his replacement for it, the pupil premium. The first is that EMA does not have any real impact on participation and on young people staying on in education. Unfortunately, the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon cited a piece of research that does not quite indicate what he thinks it does. It was based on a flawed sample, as several of my hon. Friends have said.

Nadhim Zahawi: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

George Howarth: I will not. The hon. Gentleman has had his opportunity.

Nadhim Zahawi: You have mentioned me twice.

George Howarth: Okay then.

Nadhim Zahawi: The right hon. Gentleman claims that the sample was flawed. Can he explain why he believes that? It was a representative sample of at least 2,000 interviews, taken in a scientific way.

George Howarth: I do not know how long the hon. Gentleman has been in the Chamber, but several of my hon. Friends have gone through the flaws in the report's methodology in great detail.

Nadhim Zahawi: What are they?

George Howarth: I am not going to repeat them. I do not want to make a speech about that particular issue, but I raised it because the hon. Gentleman used flawed research to support his argument.
	On participation, I know that 80% of those attending Knowsley community college who are in the relevant age range receive EMA, and the figure is 84% for Hugh Baird college. Neither the hon. Gentleman nor the Secretary of State can gainsay that. Since 1997, the number of young people from Knowsley who have gone on to higher education has gone up by 187%. EMA was not in place for all that period, of course, but those figures indicate to me that it was part of the package of things that has enabled people to stay on into further and higher education.
	The Secretary of State's second argument is that there are better ways to reward young people and improve attainment. When he first made his announcement about EMA, I was prepared to accept that that might be the case. I have waited patiently since October for him to explain how it might be, but he has failed to do so, including today. I sat and listened carefully to his speech, but as several hon. Members have said, he chose to make a speech that was more about economic policy than about EMA. Other ways of supporting young people might work better, but unfortunately we have not been told what his case is and nobody has yet demonstrated it.
	My final point is that some on the Government Benches seem to believe the argument about the 90% dead-weight, but there is something wrong about saying to young people in less favourable circumstances, "You don't need any support." Actually, it is a real struggle for families on low incomes. It is a struggle for young people not only to get to college-there has been a lot of discussion of transport costs-but to live anything like a decent life without some support. I find it deeply offensive when people use phrases such as "dead-weight" when we are talking about people who are struggling to realise their potential and to gain academic qualifications and, in many cases, to go on into higher education when that would have been inconceivable a generation ago.
	The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said that he regretted the tone of this debate, but I regret how the needs of those young people seem to have been jettisoned without any real thought or debate whatever. The Secretary of State had to prove that the changes would work, but he did not do so, and he should now withdraw his proposals.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Dawn Primarolo: Order. A huge number of Members still wish to participate in this debate, and the Front Benchers have given an indication of relatively short wind-ups of 10 minutes each at the end. I am therefore reducing the time limit again-to five minutes from the next speaker I call-in the hope that I will get more speakers in. I hope that all hon. Members will take note of that.

Tessa Munt: I wish to declare an interest in that one of my children was in receipt of EMA to do A-levels at college, and I was very grateful for that help. I should also like to thank the Opposition for the opportunity to debate this matter.
	I shall concentrate on the situation for the 655 students at Strode college in Street, the 1,813 students at Bridgwater college-41% and 50% of whom respectively are in receipt of EMA-and the 2,615 children living in poverty in the Wells constituency. I am grateful to Tom Strode-Walton, James Staniforth, the principal of Strode college, and Fiona McMillan, the principal of Bridgwater college, for the information that they have provided to me for this debate.
	If students from disadvantaged backgrounds do not have the right help to access education for AS and A2-levels, there is no chance of them accessing university education until later in life. Strode college estimates that its students have claimed £500,000 in EMA this year. Bridgwater college surveyed its students and estimates that they have claimed in the region of £1.5 million.
	The learner support fund at Strode college is currently £17,000, and at Bridgwater in this financial year it is £42,000. The Government propose to triple the current learner support fund for each college to address the loss of EMA to students from September 2011 onwards. That would mean that next year Strode college could expect £51,000, and that Bridgwater college could expect £126,000. It is difficult to understand how those colleges will make that funding stretch to meet students' needs so that they can continue to fund their education.
	The Minister should look to remove the main barriers to FE and HE. Many of the arguments that I would wish to make today have been rehearsed already, but in a rural area such as mine, one main barrier is transport to and from college. A county bus ticket in Somerset costs £600 a year. That is likely to increase as Somerset county council stops concessions for students-it will withdraw its subsidy in April-and as the various fuel price increases are included. Public transport in many rural areas is non-existent, and it is difficult for students to work because they cannot get home on public transport later in the evenings or at weekends, when there is a reduced service. A taxi fare from my village, which is four miles from the main town, is about £15 one way.
	The mother of the twins Rhiannon, who wishes to be a vet, and Ayesha, who wants to be a psychologist, wrote to me last night. They live in a very rural part of my patch, and their mother is recovering from an illness. Consequently, they will be caught in a situation in which they have to pay £1,400 or £1,500 each year to get through college.
	The other main expenses for which EMA is used have been mentioned: books, kit and clothing. Studying hairdressing at Bridgwater requires £200-worth of equipment. The equipment needed for plumbing, bricklaying, car mechanics and all the other trades is also extremely expensive. Chefs need knives; art and photography students need a constant supply of materials; and those on sports courses need clothing, footwear and equipment, none of which are cheap. Many other courses require textbooks and supporting literature, and all students need to cover those costs.
	In my part of rural Somerset, there are several schools without any sixth forms: Whitstone school in Shepton Mallet, St Dunstan's community school in Glastonbury, and Crispin school in Street. Students aged 17 and 18 will be required to stay on in full-time education or training from 2013 and 2015 respectively, and the choice of which school or college to attend must lie freely with the student. It is important that students are not required to attend their nearest A-level provider, as that could lead to their choices being limited. Year 11 students at Whitstone school, for example, might want to study a specific subject that means they will want to go to Frome college, Radstock college or Yeovil college, travelling 18 to 42 miles a day. It is important that future students have the ability to plan, budget and know exactly where they will be. For that reason, the Minister must address the issue of transport. I received advice from the Department for Transport this morning, saying that the local authority must provide home-to-school transport but that it has no legal requirement to help the over-16s, and that only 21% of local authorities use their discretionary powers to offer concessions, over and above the statutory requirements.
	I ask the Secretary of State for Education to consider all the issues affecting my constituents in rural Somerset. EMA is not perfect; it needs to be reviewed. I am not wedded to it therefore, but I am sure that if we address the transport issues-

Nigel Evans: Order. Time is up.

Jenny Chapman: I am very grateful for this opportunity to speak in the debate and to represent the concerns of my Darlington constituents.
	More than 100 people in my constituency will lose their jobs as a result of the Government's decision to scrap EMA, and about 1,300 students will lose out. Providing EMA of £30 a week to the children of families whose combined earnings are less than £21,000 is the simplest, fairest and most effective way of keeping young people in education and training.
	We have two outstanding colleges and one excellent school sixth form in my constituency. College principals have spoken to me of their concerns about the impact of the removal of EMA on their students and their institutions. The college I attended in the early '90s served at that time a far smaller cohort of young people than it does today. Most came from the well-off areas close to the college. Results were adequate but not great, and admissions to Oxford and Cambridge-which the Secretary of State cares so much about-were rare. Today, the college's biggest challenge is to accommodate the ever-increasing number of young people from across the region who wish to study there. Queen Elizabeth sixth form college in Darlington is consistently among the best performing sixth-form colleges in the country, and one of the secrets of its success is that it can recruit from a wide geographical area.
	I was a governor at QE before the introduction of EMA, and recruitment from secondary schools in the less affluent areas was often either non-existent or in single-digit numbers. That has changed and the situation is continuing to improve thanks to EMA. Because many current QE students travel more than a mile and a half to get to college, they rely on public transport to get them there, which has a cost. Those young people are not able to go home for their lunch, so they need money to buy food. They also need money to benefit from participating in the rich array of important extracurricular activities that are on offer but which need to be paid for. Many students on EMA work to supplement their allowance, but in Darlington students are explicitly encouraged to limit the hours they work, which I think is good. Although having part-time jobs brings many benefits to young people, they must not distract them from the aim of getting a qualification.
	It is particularly cruel to remove EMA from students who will be only part of the way through their courses when they lose their allowance. With EMA, students could be certain of the support they would receive, and they could make their choices accordingly. There is a predictability to the scheme that allows families to plan ahead. It shifts horizons and encourages the setting of longer-term goals. The idea that my old college could now be using its budget to provide buses to transport students to it from further afield is a credit to the college, but it is inefficient and it disempowers individual students. With EMA, young people had choice; they were responsible for managing their own bank accounts and for making their own financial decisions. If young people spend all their money on beer and cannot afford to get to college the next day, they lose out on future payments-this is a conditional allowance. It is a tough lesson, but one that young people understand and sign up to.
	Few things in life are more expensive than a NEET. The number of NEETs in Darlington has reduced and the level of participation in further education there has increased from 82% to 91%. As a former lead member for children's services, I think that EMA is very good value for money.
	The Government do not understand social mobility. In fact, they have had to get my predecessor and friend, Alan Milburn, to explain it to them. I just hope that they listen, because social mobility is about making choices and living with the results of those choices. Scrapping EMA does the opposite of saying, "We are all in this together." It says to our young people, "You are on your own."

Jeremy Lefroy: I have very much enjoyed listening to many of the speeches in this excellent debate, which has been well worth having. I listened particularly closely to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), who is not in his place, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who made some powerful points.
	I understand the reasons for the changes-the deficit of £23 billion in November brings things sharply into focus-but I am concerned, as many Members are, about the consequences. I shall briefly make two points that need stressing, although they have been alluded to by a number of hon. and right hon. Members. The first relates to fairness. Those who entered sixth form in September 2010 will cease to receive EMA in September 2011, and the Secretary of State needs to examine that closely, because it is not fair.

John Hemming: Sixth-form colleges in Birmingham are trying to assess how much the lower sixth-formers need their EMA. Does my hon. Friend think that that is a useful process?

Jeremy Lefroy: I think that that is an extremely useful process. I should also mention, in this regard, the people who just joined in January and have no particular scheme available to them.
	My second point, which has been made by many hon. Members, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) and for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), is about transport. I have an 18-year-old daughter and I find it strange that she pays for her bus fares to and from school whereas others who could well afford not to have free bus passes receive them. We need to examine that seriously. Today I met a couple of students from Stoke-on-Trent, in Staffordshire, one of whom said that she was paying £7.60 a day in bus fares because she had to take two buses; the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) mentioned that situation earlier. I also wish to pay tribute to the work of the colleges in my constituency, in particular South Staffordshire college and Stafford college. They have brought the figures to me, and have shown me the importance of making these points and representations on their behalf.
	Finally, I, like the Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman), wish to stress the importance of evidence. I agree that evidence is vital. This subject is too important to ignore evidence, because the future prospects of young people are at stake. So my final request to the Secretary of State is that he be guided by the best possible evidence in this matter.

Ian Mearns: Without doubt, the removal of education maintenance allowance will have an enormous impact on the young people of my region of the north-east, including those in my constituency in Gateshead. It is irrefutable that since its introduction, EMA has changed the landscape of young people's aspirations in Gateshead. Staying on became an option for many, when it had not been before. Now it is being abolished-an action that will come as no surprise to my constituents, as it is entirely consistent with every other action by the coalition since it was elected in May 2010. It is now in the process of redirecting resources and wealth from the least advantaged to the most advantaged, and of crushing and removing opportunity for the most vulnerable and disadvantaged in our society, including in my community.

Nicky Morgan: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Ian Mearns: I will not.
	I am proud of my local authority's role in improving the educational outcomes of young people in my borough and of the fact that it was an EMA pilot authority, prior to which it had invested in bursary awards for poorer students.
	I asked all the local colleges in Newcastle and Gateshead about the impact of this proposal and its effect on them and their students. This is the response I received from Gateshead college:
	"Our statistics show that 60% of our learners receive EMA",
	but among 16 to 18-year-olds it was 70% of students, with
	"80% of those in receipt receiving the full payment",
	one 10th receiving two-thirds payments, and one 10th receiving a one-third payment. All those young people will be delighted to know that they are regarded by some in this Chamber as waste in the system, and by others as "dead-weight".
	The college principal told me:
	"I believe that the Department of Education has made the wrong decision and that disadvantaged young people in Gateshead will suffer as a result of this decision and Ministers' ambitions to raise the participation rate to 18 will fail."
	He continued:
	"EMA is predominantly taken up by those with low achievement levels at school, those from ethnic minorities and those from single parent families and those whose families are just plainly and simply poor."
	He saw EMA as
	"a vital tool for increasing social mobility... I believe that stopping EMA will result in many of these young people, from disadvantaged backgrounds, not continuing their education after 16."
	Many of these young people will simply not have the money to travel on public transport, never mind buy books-or even to eat. There is also a significant danger that many students will, on losing their EMA, be forced to drop out of college after their first year. What a potential waste when they have done a year of study!
	The views I cite are not those of just one college in the north-east, as many colleges take the same view. Many Members will have received the briefing from the Association of Colleges, which represents colleges across the UK. The briefing clearly states:
	"The vast majority of colleges and their governors...across the UK, oppose the abolition of EMA...94% of colleges believe that the abolition of EMA will affect students' ability to travel to and from college."
	The Association of Colleges also estimates that up to 300,000 young people will lose their EMA part way through their two-year studies. EMA has provided a real incentive to increasing levels of attainment because payment has been tied to levels of attendance and completion of course work.
	Let us be honest: none of this is a surprise to Government Ministers, who know that it is the young people from the most disadvantaged backgrounds who will suffer most. They know that many will not be able to start or continue education beyond 16; they know that there will be a rate of attrition-collateral damage-from their policy. Ministers know this, but I am afraid to say that they appear not to care about it. If one were completely cynical, one could be forgiven for thinking that this is precisely what those Ministers want to do. For them, further and higher education is not for the disadvantaged, not for the poor, or for those whose parents or carers are on modest incomes.
	I noticed with interest that the Secretary of State earlier offered to visit the local college in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry). Will he make the same offer to me in Gateshead, or to my colleagues in Newcastle, Middlesbrough, Sunderland or Darlington-or would it be too inconvenient for him to travel? The coalition Government talk about building a stronger and more vibrant economy, but I am sorry to say that it looks as if they are going to wreck it.

Elizabeth Truss: This is the latest in a series of debates initiated by the Opposition on educational issues. We have heard a number of lengthy speeches on various subjects, but we do not seem to have heard about issues that get to the core of what education is about, such as the quality of teaching. Instead, the debate seems to have focused on other issues. That is not to say that transport is not important, and I am very pleased that Norfolk county council confirmed yesterday that despite its budget reductions, it will provide transport support for further education students in Norfolk. That is great, but we must focus on getting the greatest bang for our buck.
	We have £500 million in the budget, and I am very concerned that the No. 1 factor in terms of the quality of education should be the quality of teaching. The reason why the previous Government failed to make progress on social mobility is that they did not focus enough on teaching quality. Last year's results in the OECD's programme for international student assessment, or PISA, tables showed that the UK had fallen to 28th place in mathematics, to 25th in reading and to 16th in science. A major reason why there was such a big gap in Britain's performance was because of the differential between low-income and high-income students. Britain performed particularly badly on the education of low-income students, despite having doubled the budget per pupil between 1998 and 2008. The Opposition need to ask themselves whether this is about finance or about where they focused their policies when they were in government.
	The issue of teachers' qualifications is important, but the UK has one of the largest gaps between the qualifications of those teaching low-income pupils and the qualifications of those teaching high-income pupils, particularly in mathematics. We have less qualified teachers teaching those from low-income backgrounds compared with those from high-income backgrounds.  [ Interruption. ] I am being corrected on my grammar; obviously, I did not go to the right kind of school.  [ Interruption. ] I went to Roundhay comprehensive school, as did the Minister of State, Department for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb). [Hon. Members: "Ooh!"]
	Under the previous Government there was also a push towards equivalence of qualifications, and people from low-income backgrounds ended up taking fewer academic qualifications. There was a reduction in the percentage of students taking modern foreign languages from 79% in 2000 to 44% in 2008. That had a commensurate effect on the ability to enter top universities in our country.
	Labour's record on social mobility was not good either.  [ Interruption. ] I am sorry-the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) can intervene on me if he likes.

John Robertson: I thank the hon. Lady for giving me this opportunity, which I did not expect. Is she saying that only the good high-level students should be allowed to have education, while the rest of us should get on with things and not get an education?

Elizabeth Truss: I fear that the hon. Gentleman has not been listening to what I have been saying, which is that we have been failing, as a country, to give the same level of education to low-income students as to high-income students. By not focusing on core issues such as improving teacher quality, the previous Government failed those students. I should like a debate on education standards-indeed, I have asked the Backbench Business Committee for one-because that is the most important thing we should address as a country. We need to debate what goes on inside schools rather than just how people get to school.

James Wharton: Does my hon. Friend agree that it is not just the core issue of how we set up and run our schools that is important? The core subjects that we teach in those schools are also very important.

Elizabeth Truss: Absolutely. I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I am very pleased that the Government have introduced the English baccalaureate, which will help us to encourage more students from all backgrounds to study subjects that will help them to get to university. That is a good thing.
	I shall finish by talking about the record of the previous Government in getting low-income students to university. Nineteen per cent. of students going into higher education were from families in the lowest income quintile, compared with 30% in Australia and 50% in the United States. That is a shameful record- [ Interruption. ] Members will note that both those countries have a proper tuition fee system.  [ Interruption. ]

Nigel Evans: Order. We cannot have all these sedentary interventions.

Elizabeth Truss: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
	As a country, we need to stop comparing ourselves with what we were in the past and start comparing ourselves with countries that are making innovations. Our debate on education has been too insular; we are not looking at what is happening internationally. That is what the shadow Secretary of State for Education should focus on, rather than holding an insular debate that is only about our country. We are not just competing against ourselves; we are competing against other nations in the world. The £500 million being spent on EMA could be better targeted. More of it should be used to reform teaching qualifications, so that there are better qualified teachers to help low-income students get ahead in life.

Shabana Mahmood: I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in this debate, especially as the scrapping of EMA is second only to the rise in tuition fees as the issue on which I have received the largest amount of correspondence. The Government are certainly politicising vast numbers of young people, albeit in the worst possible way and with the worst possible policies.
	The Government's decision to scrap EMA represents a vicious attack on the aspirations of young people in our country, especially the most disadvantaged. The scale of support that is being withdrawn is shocking. Our young people will bear a very heavy burden indeed; the Chancellor once stated that he would not balance the budget on the backs of the poor-a statement that fell apart as soon as he uttered it-but it seems that in addition to balancing the budget on the backs of the poor, the Government also intend to balance it on the backs of the young. The message from the Treasury Bench today is clear: if you happen to be young and poor, you're stuffed.
	The scrapping of EMA has particular resonance in my constituency of Birmingham, Ladywood. My constituency has the highest rate of unemployment in the country, and one of the reasons why it is blighted by long-term unemployment is the legacy of the recession of the '80s. The decision of the then Tory Government to walk away from young people and to say that unemployment was a price worth paying created a lost generation of young people in Birmingham, Ladywood, and across Birmingham as a whole. Now, as a result of the decisions of this Tory-Lib Dem Government, the children of that lost generation will become the new lost generation of our time. That is a cruel and deplorable state of affairs, and represents a dereliction of the Government's duty to the young of our country.
	The EMA has three main purposes-increasing participation, increasing attendance and thus increasing attainment-and achieves them because of how young people use EMA. They use it primarily for travel, which learner support funds cannot be used for. Being able to travel to the institution that offers the best course for each student is crucial; it may be the single most important reason why attainment rates have improved. Students also use EMA to buy books and other materials.
	Because EMA provides additional financial assistance, students have the financial leeway either not to take a part-time job or to decrease the hours they work, enabling them to focus on getting the best possible grades and qualifications to make a better future for themselves. That is a point made forcefully to me by staff and students using the Connexions service in Birmingham, which supports young people in Birmingham to go into education, employment or training. The service has already faced massive cuts, including the closure of the Aston branch in my constituency, but it does crucial work.
	Students supported by Connexions staff have written to me with their views about EMA. All those students and the staff who work with them tell me that without EMA they would not have stayed in post-16 education, or would not have done as well. All of them have used their EMA for help with travel and equipment. My discussions with them have shown me that EMA is especially crucial for students on vocational courses.
	As someone who represents a constituency that is 60% non-white, I am also especially concerned about the effect that removal of EMA will have on ethnic minority students and their post-16 participation and attainment rates. Some 70% of British Pakistani students in full-time education receive EMA. The figure is 84% for Bangladeshi students, 56% for black African students and 50% for black Caribbean students. In that context, it is totally unacceptable that the Government have failed to carry out an equality impact assessment on its policy of scrapping EMA.
	The Birmingham and Solihull principals group has told me:
	"There are going to be a lot of casualties out of this who will never escape poverty as a result of this cut".
	I hope that Government Members will bear that in mind when they vote.

Gavin Barwell: The shadow Secretary of State was right to open the debate with his characteristic passion. I come from a borough that is diverse in every sense and in which there is a shocking gap between the educational qualifications and life chances of the haves and have-nots. I cannot think of an issue that is more worthy of being passionate about than widening access to education and closing that attainment gap.
	The coalition Government have done good things in that regard already, such as introducing the pupil premium and school reform. The English baccalaureate will ensure that children from less well-off backgrounds will study academic qualifications that they will need in the workplaces of tomorrow, and the Government have also taken action on apprenticeships and investment in the early years. However, given the economic situation that we are in, not every budget can be protected, so the Government had to take a painful decision on education maintenance allowance. It was right in principle to examine that budget, but I have several concerns about the detail.
	EMA is an archetypal Labour policy. Its aim, objective and principle were absolutely right. It is laudable to attempt to widen participation in education, so the previous Government should be congratulated on trying to do that. However, the execution of their policy was expensive and extremely centralist. People have talked about the impact on the poorest in our society, but EMA is paid to people in households earning up to £31,000, which is significantly above average national earnings.
	There is some debate about the exact number of people who would not have gone on to further education if they had not received EMA. We have heard about the two reports that have been produced and there is a dispute about the figures. However, everyone to whom I have spoken accepts that some money is going to young people who would have stayed on in further education anyway.

Nadhim Zahawi: Does my hon. Friend agree that if the targeting were somehow linked to those who are closest to the students, the system would be much better?

Gavin Barwell: My hon. Friend neatly brings me to my next point, which is about centralism. I tried to make this point to the shadow Secretary of State. One of the points that has been effectively raised in speeches made by hon. Members on both sides of the House is the differences among students. Young people who have a caring responsibility, a special need or a long distance to travel to college, or who are young parents, have much greater needs than some other students, so a national scheme that makes a flat-rate payment to everyone who comes from a household that earns a certain amount is not necessarily the best way to address the problem.

Nicky Morgan: Does my hon. Friend agree with the principal of Loughborough college, who has put it to me that he is best placed to understand the needs of students and to administer the discretionary learner support fund, but that he needs some certainty about what the fund will be in the next academic year so that he can start planning?

Gavin Barwell: I agree with my hon. Friend, who helpfully takes me on to the next point that I wish to make to Ministers.
	The principle behind an enhanced discretionary learner support fund is exactly right. Responsibility should be devolved to people at the front line who know which of their students need help and how much help is required. There are two important caveats, however. First, we need to ensure that sufficient funding is available nationally to deal with students' needs, and it is clear that there is a debate about how much that quantum should be and whether an adequate amount has been allocated by the Government. Secondly, we need more detail-I hope that the Minister of State, Department for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), will be able to give this in the limited time he has to wind up the debate-about the system for allocating the fund to schools and colleges throughout the country. That system will be critical, given that our debate has made clear the extent to which different parts of the country are dependent on EMA funding at present.
	Despite the fact that I have some concerns about what the Government are doing, I will support the amendment. I have been a Member of Parliament for a relatively short time-about eight months-and during that period, I have had to vote for several measures that I would not support in an ideal world. I have sat through several debates in which Opposition Members have set out their objections to some of the things that the Government are doing. However, it seems to me and to most of my constituents, many of whom are also concerned about some of the coalition's policies, that those objections hold weight and credibility only if there is a clearly set out alternative.
	We know that the previous Labour Government were committed to reductions in spending of 25% in unprotected Departments. I have sat through debate after debate, in which we have met opposition to coalition proposals, but I have never heard one single alternative. I have never heard an Opposition Member saying, "Here is something that the Government are not cutting that we would cut." Until we get an overall package that adds up from the Opposition, we cannot have a serious debate.
	I am conscious of the time and of the fact that several Opposition Members still wish to speak, so I simply end by saying that the Government are right to look at the EMA budget. There is clear evidence that the current scheme is too centralist and that money is being spent on people who do not need the support. Like some Opposition Members, I do not like the term, "dead-weight" and I do not think that we should use it.
	Clearly, we can get better value for money from the scheme and it does not need to be so centralist. The Government are right to consider it, but there are points of detail about which my constituents, many people throughout the country and I need reassurance.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Nigel Evans: Order. As you can see, no Government Members are standing, but many Opposition Members wish to take part in the debate. If you show self-restraint, several of your colleagues will get in; if you do not, they will not. It is up to you.

Paul Blomfield: It is unfortunate that so many Government Members have tried to deflect the debate and create a smokescreen of talk about Labour overspending. I do not recall the Conservative party or the Liberal Democrats opposing the money that we spent on building new hospitals and new schools and on investing in our universities and our police service as we set about repairing the broken Britain that we inherited in 1997. If our spending was profligate, and if Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members thought that at the time, why did the then shadow Chancellor commit himself to matching our spending plans until the banking crisis hit internationally?
	The hon. Member for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) has just challenged us to come up with alternatives. Here is one alternative: if the Government abandon their plans to halve the tax on bankers' bonuses, they could spend the money on EMAs three times over.

Christopher Pincher: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Paul Blomfield: No, in the light of time, I will not give way.
	The hon. Member for Croydon Central also said that we should pay attention to the expertise of those on the front line of educating our young people. Every head of institution in Sheffield to whom I have spoken has made it clear that they oppose the Government's plans. Let us consider Silverdale school, which is not in my constituency, but in that of the Deputy Prime Minister. When he next pops to Sheffield, I hope that he will take the time to talk to teachers and students there. It is a successful school with a real commitment to reaching out beyond the leafy suburbs in which it is located. It draws on many young people from the parts of inner-city Sheffield that I represent, provides them with an outstanding education and transforms their lives. When I was there recently, presenting GCSE certificates, the head and deputy head had no doubt that getting rid of EMAs would undermine that work for the 25% of students who attend the school from my constituency and depend on EMAs.
	The biggest provider of 16-to-19 education in our city is Sheffield college, with just over 3,300 learners. Of those, 51% claim the EMA, and-this is a measure of their needs-84% of them are awarded it at the full rate. In my discussions with her, the chief executive of the college made it absolutely clear that the EMA has a significant positive impact on learner retention and achievement, and that its withdrawal would lead to a significant cut in student numbers. That, along with the money lost through scrapping Train to Gain and the reduction in funding for adult learners, will have a significant impact on the college budget, its curriculum and its work.
	One of the students at the King Edward VII school in the heart of my constituency, Elicia Ennis, was so moved with anger by the double whammy of the Government's policies on the EMA and university fees that she wrote an article for our local newspaper, Sheffield's  The Star. She wrote:
	"I completely disagree with the idea of cutting the EMA.
	Some students may have abused the system but that's no reason for the entire idea to be axed."
	She went on to say-with a full knowledge of the subject, having talked daily to those around her in her sixth form-that
	"with fees rising and EMA being cut, people will leave school at 16".
	She also went on to say:
	"as a...former Lib Dem supporter I will think twice about voting for the party when we get a chance. More so if Nick Clegg represents them."
	We Labour Members know that many Lib Dem Members-and, indeed, some Conservative Members-share our concerns about the abolition of the EMA, just as they shared our concerns about tuition fees, but instead of angsting, and turning to principled abstention or regretful support of the Government's proposals, they should use this opportunity to join us in calling on the Government to rethink their decision on the EMA.

Margaret Ritchie: The Government's website, Directgov, states:
	"If you are struggling with the costs of learning speak to student services at your school, college or training provider about financial support you may be able to get."
	However, we are here to discuss the removal of this benefit-a benefit designed to help those whom the Government recognise as struggling, and designed to encourage young people and assist them with education and access to training.
	The motion recognises the different situation in devolved Administrations, but it would be naive to think that the removal of the EMA here will not have an effect in Northern Ireland, just as the recent increase in student tuition fees had an effect there. Indeed, my understanding is that the appropriate Department in Northern Ireland is considering introducing further restrictions on the provision of the EMA in Northern Ireland, and perhaps even abolishing it. That is all the more likely given the Treasury's recent removal of end-of-year flexibility, which places an even greater strain on the Department in Northern Ireland, and on the Department for Education.
	The withdrawal of the EMA comes on the back of the decision to increase student fees. It would appear that the coalition Government are adopting an education policy for the well-heeled, and ensuring that from an early age, the less well-off are unable to participate in further and higher education. A few weeks ago, this Government made it impossible for many to attend university in future years, and today they will make it impossible for many who live in disadvantaged areas to take the first step on the further and higher education ladder.
	Given the particular historical lack of access to further education for the poorest sections of society in Northern Ireland, we must do all we can to protect the EMA and access to education and training opportunities, which offer vital help to those most in need of it. That will lessen the number of people who are economically inactive and ensure that more have access to educational opportunities.
	In 2009-10, nearly 24,000 students were in receipt of the EMA in Northern Ireland. That figure increased this year, but there have been smaller numbers in previous years. However, those figures are not the full story. There are a large number of students who depend on the provision, and for whom it has an integral bearing on their decision to apply for further education and to stay in further education once there. It gives them a sense of stability. The recent survey conducted by the University and Colleges Union and the Association of Colleges found that seven out of 10 students felt they would have to drop out of their course if EMA was withdrawn, and nearly two fifths stated that they would not have started their course without the provision of the grant.
	In conclusion, there are many students in my constituency in Northern Ireland who have written to me declaring their opposition to the withdrawal of EMA here in Britain, because it is their fear that a similar path will be followed in Northern Ireland. This is the wrong direction to go, because it penalises, deprives and ensures that those who need that path to education and training will not have it. My party and I will support the Labour motion this evening and oppose the amendment.

Stephen Twigg: In his speech at the beginning of the debate, the Secretary of State suggested that the Opposition have only one answer to the questions that we are addressing in this discussion, and that that answer is the education maintenance allowance. The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), who is not in his place, suggested that we were arguing that that was a magic wand. Another Member on the Government Benches suggested that the Opposition's view was that all we needed to do was to throw money at the problem.
	The education maintenance allowance was one of a set of reforms that Labour introduced in government, with the objective of closing the achievement gap between the richest and poorest and supporting those who have not traditionally participated in education to do so. That is why we invested extra money in schools, including the academies programme, and it is why the Labour Government were the first to give support to the excellent Teach First programme, to which the Secretary of State referred. It is why we introduced the 14 to 19 diplomas, and why we focused on literacy and numeracy in primary schools. I could go on.
	We are not talking only about money. We are talking also about reform and improvement in our schools, with a focus on teaching and learning. The argument has been made strongly from the Opposition Benches and by some Members on the Government Benches about the increased participation that EMA has enabled, particularly for those from the poorest backgrounds. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) said, it was never just about increasing participation.
	EMA was also about increasing the attendance of those in that age group attending school or in further education. It meant that people were not forced to work while they were studying, so that they would have more time to study. Importantly, it was about getting better qualifications while studying in that age group so that more young people from those backgrounds got the opportunity to go on to higher education. It remains the case that not enough young people are getting that chance, but the numbers doubled in the poorest cohort while Labour was in power. That progress was in large part due to the education maintenance allowance.
	EMA is crucial in Liverpool. More than 7,000 young learners benefit from it. Shortly before Christmas I had the opportunity to visit Liverpool community college and meet young people, who told me that they would not be there studying both academic and vocational courses if it were not for the education maintenance allowance. Maureen Mellor, the principal of the college, has written to all the Liverpool MPs to say that there is now great uncertainty for next year. She wrote:
	"It is difficult to plan . . . or to reassure current and prospective students."
	One of the schools in my constituency, St John Bosco, is an outstanding school. It is in Croxteth, one of the most deprived wards in Liverpool. Two thirds of the sixth-formers at this outstanding girls' Catholic school are on EMA. Anne Pontifex, the head of the school, said to me this week:
	"The removal of EMA may also mean students having to take up additional part-time employment. This will result in many students not giving studies the time and energy required."
	I have no problem with an evidence-based review of EMA. The problem is that the Government have already decided to make an 85% cut in the funds that are available. All of the wonderful alternatives that Government Members have referred to would be funded out of 15% of the money that is currently available. The Government have decided to abolish EMA first and then have a discussion about the alternatives. Yes, let us have a discussion about what the alternatives might be, but let us make that decision first and then see where we go, rather than in the order that the Government propose.
	The Government have talked about all of us being in this together. They have talked about deficit reduction and the need for fairness. There is no fairness in this 85% cut represented by the abolition of EMA. It will hit the poorest parts of the country hardest. It will hit the poorest people in the poorest parts of the country hardest, and once again it is another cut from the Government that will hit young people and children harder than the rest of the population.
	We have heard some thoughtful speeches from some Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members. I would appeal to them to follow the logic of their speeches and join us in the Lobby, and I would appeal to the Government to think again because the cut could cause great social and economic damage, undermine their stated intent to promote social mobility, and further widen the achievement gap between the poorest and the richest in this country.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I will say it one more time. If hon. Members show restraint, more will get in. If not, they simply will not.

Paul Goggins: In 1997, the year I was first elected to Parliament, there were two high schools in my constituency where less than 10% of pupils got five GCSE passes. That is not five A to C grade passes; that is five simple passes. It was absolutely crystal clear that two decades of unremitting unemployment and poverty had created a mood of low expectation and a complete collapse in confidence and aspiration. If it is true that it takes quite a while to begin to change that mindset and culture, it is equally true, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) said earlier, that the efforts that have been made in the years since have made a real difference.
	Many of my right hon. and hon. Friends have evidenced that in their speeches this afternoon. The Sure Start centres have clearly been a major step forward, as have the four brand new high schools built under Building Schools for the Future in my constituency in the last few years. There is also the determination of many teachers to ensure that young people get the right message and build up that confidence and pride. All of that together has made a real difference. There is still a long way to go. Certainly in schools in my constituency and throughout the Manchester area in particular, there is still room for huge improvements to be made, and I support the schools in my constituency when they are making those efforts, but the direction of travel is the right one.
	In trying to sustain this educational improvement, it is crucial that we encourage all our young people to stay on at 16. It has therefore been a welcome development that The Manchester college has opened a new campus in the Benchill area of my constituency, one of the most disadvantaged parts of it, for sixth-formers. In the first phase of the college, 180 students have enrolled this year, and it is hoped that 800 will enrol in September next year. Of those students, 85% receive EMA at the moment. If we roll together the students at The Manchester college and those at Trafford college, where many of my constituents also go, we are talking about £4.6 million a year being taken away from those students and their families. This really is the grotesque nature of the decision, which makes it an even worse decision than the decision about tuition fees. That is an issue about the future and about debt, and that is serious enough, but this is about real cash now. It is £4.6 million taken out of the pockets and purses of the poorest families in my constituency and elsewhere in the Manchester area, and it is wholly and utterly unacceptable.
	We know that EMA has made a real difference in terms of retention, attendance and achievement. For example, The Manchester college tells me that in 2003, one in five 16 and 17-year-olds left quoting financial problems as their reason for leaving. Last year, that was one in 20. That is substantial evidence of the real impact of EMA.
	Loreto college, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) mentioned, last year sent three EMA students to Oxbridge. This year, three in the upper sixth form are destined for Oxbridge and 25 in the lower sixth form intend to apply, two of whom claim EMA and live in my constituency. Like many other Members, I have met and talked with students in my constituency and am impressed by their confidence and aspiration. They all talk about the practical difference that EMA makes, as with it they can buy an £11 Megarider bus ticket and the equipment that they need to get their qualifications and move into work. Some of them said that they would not continue their courses if they lost EMA, and those who would carry on said that they would have to do more part-time work and that they would not focus as well on their studies or do as well as they otherwise might. All of them felt guilty about the fact that if they had to take more money from their families, who are not well off, their brothers and sisters would suffer as a result.
	I will close by quoting an e-mail that I received yesterday from a young constituent. For me, it says it all, so I hope that the Minister will respond to it in his winding-up speech:
	"I'm 17 years old and...receive full EMA. Why do I receive it? Because there isn't enough income in my house. Why isn't there? Because my parents didn't go to college."
	He is trying to change that cycle, yet the Government are taking the ladder away from underneath him.

Emily Thornberry: City and Islington college in my constituency is a great college: Ofsted believes so and gave it a Beacon award for excellence in 2005. Perhaps more importantly, young people in north and east London know it to be a great college, which is why they go there if they get half a chance. On Monday, I went along to the college to speak with eight politics students. I asked them about their backgrounds. By coincidence, six of them had received free school dinners when at secondary school. I asked them about EMA and the effect that the cut would have on them. They were a cross-section of the college. Henry, a sixth-former currently taking his A2s, wants to be a pilot. He works hard, has good grades and sits on the college board. Because of his efforts he was offered an assessment day at Oxford aviation academy, which is the best place in the world to become a pilot, but how did he pay the fare to get there? He paid with his EMA.
	Asheen is from Leyton and comes to City and Islington college because, as I have said, it is one of the best colleges around. She does not travel by bus because they are unreliable at that time in the morning, so she needs to go by train and, lo and behold, needs her EMA to do so. Ismail is studying computer science and relies on his EMA to pay for his core textbooks. The "Learning Java" textbook, which is absolutely necessary for his course, costs £30. He cannot rely on his parents to be able to pay for it, so how would a boy from his background be able to pay without his EMA? Those are real students at the City and Islington college who will have their EMA taken away. Zaynab is doing four A-levels and is also one of the children who received free school dinners.

Charlotte Leslie: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Emily Thornberry: No, I will not give way.
	Zaynab must spend £20 a week on travel. She said:
	"The Government says that we should eat healthily, but how are we supposed to do that? It comes at a price."
	If she spends £25 a week on food and £20 on travel, how does she pay for her textbooks? How much does she need EMA? She needs it strongly, yet the Government are about to take it away. Those are illustrations of real children at colleges in Islington, and they show that the Government are completely detached from reality. I am pleased to have heard from the Secretary of State that he will visit City and Islington college and I can assure him that we will hold him to that promise-we have a reputation for determination and single-mindedness in my area, which he will see when he visits.
	The Government's amendment to the motion states blithely that they are committed to
	"working with young people, schools and colleges and others...on arrangements for supporting students in further education and improving access to, enthusiasm for and participation in further and higher education."
	That sounds good, but why are they cutting entitlement funding? We will also want to talk with the Secretary of State about that. Entitlement funding allows the kids at City and Islington college the sort of help that they really need, such as one-to-one tuition, or having someone sit down and help them sort out UCAS forms. It allows them to be taken to see colleges and the sort of work that they might be able to do. It allows trips to the theatre or places related to their courses. Those students are here today and have sat upstairs doggedly throughout the debate. That is the sort of entitlement and enrichment that my college gets, and I am proud of it. When the Secretary of State comes to visit City and Islington college, he will be proud of it too. If he comes with an open mind, he will change his mind.

Frank Dobson: I take personally this proposal to abolish the education maintenance allowance, because I can remember being utterly skint between the ages of 16 and 19, as my dad died at about the time that I was doing my O-levels. My mother was determined that I should stay on at school, so she went out to work again, but my situation was also eased by a small grant that I received from the then East Riding county council, which, I have to say in fairness, was Tory-controlled.
	That small grant made a huge difference to me. The few extra bob that I received meant that, as a sixth-former, I could play a normal part in sixth-form activities, and I did not feel left out or as much of a burden on my mother as I might have felt. I am sure that the same applies to many young people who receive the EMA now, because they are simply able to play a full part in growing up and going to college.
	Some people seem to think that the EMA is a social payment, but it is not. If a student does English literature, they will probably want to go to the theatre, but they have to pay to do so. If they do music they might want to buy-or these days, rent-an instrument, or go to a concert. That is a vital part of education, and the EMA rightly makes its contribution. If a student studies civil engineering, they might want to go on a visit to see some great tunnelling equipment somewhere, but they have to pay. The EMA makes a contribution to such things, and students are able to function like everybody else; they are not regarded as poor relations.
	Young people do not want to be a burden on their parent or parents, or on their sisters and brothers; and they do not want to diminish their family's status by reducing them to poverty after taking too much money in order to continue going to college. We have about 1,750 such young people in my constituency. Many go to Camden's excellent schools, but quite a lot do NVQs and other vocational courses at King's Cross construction skills centre, the Working Men's college, Camden Jobtrain-where literally 100% of young people receive EMA-and Camden Itec. All those young people work hard to better themselves-the sort of thing that Mrs Thatcher used to go on about endlessly. They are doing exactly what she would have wanted and are the epitome of aspiration, so to end the EMA for such people is to kick them in the teeth. It will leave them with a stark contrast. They are being kicked in the teeth, but they see billionaire bankers and tax avoiders and hear millionaire Cabinet Ministers prating on about them being a dead-weight-a dead-weight.
	There is a real danger, not just for the Tories and the Liberal Democrats but for our whole society, that we will turn those young people from aspiration to alienation, which will be very damaging. So, we are not just concerned about the people who might drop out, although that would be bad. We should also be concerned because if we get rid of the EMA we will impoverish not just those young people who manage to stay on despite its disappearance, but many of their families at the same time. The Government and the people supporting them should be ashamed of themselves.

Angela Smith: I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate in the context of a series of attacks by the Government on young people and their aspirations. The Government's policy on EMA represents a particularly dangerous attack on young people, because over the past few years the allowance has acted as an incentive-a really effective intervention-at a key stage in life, encouraging young people to stay on at college to gain the necessary skills to succeed in an increasingly competitive labour market.
	As an incentive, EMA has been effective. Contrary to what Government Members have said, participation rates have increased by more than 7% for young women students and more than 5% for young males. Research is unequivocal in indicating that the allowance has reduced the drop-out rate by more than 5%. As somebody who worked in FE for more than 10 years as a lecturer, I know that that key statistic means everything in terms of the chances of young people succeeding not only at college but in life.
	It is therefore astounding that the Government have even thought about axing £500 million from the EMA budget. As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) said, that is a massive 85% cut in funding support for young people. It is on a par with other cuts to Government funding and support for higher education, which is why Labour Members feel so strongly that this Government are determined to focus all their attacks on public spending on young people.

Charlotte Leslie: Will the hon. Lady give way?

Angela Smith: I will not.
	The impact on my constituency will be particularly stark. Just under 60% of young people who attend Barnsley college receive full EMA, and more than 30% of those students have indicated in an independent survey that they would not have started their courses had EMA not been available. Much was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) and my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) about the story relating to Sheffield. All I would add is that in the last academic year the success rate for students receiving EMA at Sheffield college was 79%-5% higher than for those who were not receiving it. If ever a statistic outlined the importance of this allowance, that is the it.
	If Government Members do not want to listen to my arguments, perhaps they would like to listen to my constituent Steve Hanstock, who tells me that his son Tim would not have been able to access full-time higher education post-16 had he not received EMA. A female student from Sheffield college has just gained a place at the university of Sheffield. She is adamant that she would have pursued her studies without EMA-I admit that-but she is clear that it enabled her to complete her course, alongside a relatively small amount of part-time work. The allowance enabled her to concentrate her mind on her studies in order to achieve her remarkable success. That underlines the experience that I had as a lecturer when I had to deal with students coming to college in the morning unable to study or participate in class because they had done a night shift at Tesco. That is exactly why EMA is such an important allowance-it enables students to focus on achievement and not to have to worry about whether they can buy the books, get to college or feed themselves.
	I want to refer to some of the statistics bandied about by the Government. The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg) and a Conservative MP have sent literature to their constituents stating that EMA costs £924 million and that only 400 more students on free school meals have accessed further education than would have been the case without the allowance. Those stats are wrong. The figure for free school meals students staying on in education is 10,000 and the reduction in the budget is £580 million. The Association of Colleges is very perturbed by the use of these stats by MPs in these letters. It says that they are wildly inaccurate and should not have been used without being properly sourced. The Government are pulling the wool over our constituents' eyes.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Mr Speaker: Order. A number of Members are still seeking to catch my eye, but there are fewer than six minutes to go.

Jim Shannon: I support the motion tabled by the Labour party. All hon. Members are aware of the reasons for the introduction of education maintenance allowance. It was set up to encourage young adults to stay at school. If we change it, we will reduce its impact and discourage the people who need it from continuing in education. It was created to give people an incentive not to give up on school just because their part-time job-if they could get one-offered them only some of the money that they needed. It was created to help families that could not afford bus fares or lunches, and to ensure that children could stay on at school if that was their desire.
	I wholeheartedly support EMA, and I put that on record. I have seen its importance in my constituency. Although I understand that it is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland, it is clear from the parents and students I have met that EMA is critical to the students for continuing their schooling and education. That cannot be ignored. I am here to support the 16 to 18-year-olds who clearly would not be able to remain in education and continue their studies if they did not have this help. Members from across the Chamber have recorded the issues in their constituencies, and those are replicated across the United Kingdom-in Northern Ireland and further afield.
	An interesting report by the Association of Colleges states:
	"Whilst we understand that the Department is taking action to protect institutions from the full effect of this budget cut in 2011-12 through the use of a safety net which limits the cuts to 3% there is concern in Colleges at the scale of the cut over the next four years which will remove £500 million from the education of young people."
	That £500 million, which has also been quoted as £555 million, should certainly be there to encourage those who would love to stay in education, but are restricted in their ability to do so by the lack of money.
	I will give an example from my area that illustrates the situation across the United Kingdom. I asked the chief executive of South Eastern regional college, in Newtownards in Strangford, for figures that would enable a greater understanding of the difference that EMA makes to disadvantaged students. Many Members have indicated the number of students who will be impacted by the change. In my area in Northern Ireland, it will impact on 1,708 students who need EMA to continue their education. The people who will be affected the most are the most deprived people in the community, who represent almost 50% of those students. Only 30% of the students in that group are affluent, and it could perhaps be argued that they could pay, but that leaves 70% of the students who cannot continue without EMA. It is clear from those figures that EMA has encouraged those in disadvantaged areas to stay in education. The evidence is clearly there. I have read the Association of Colleges report and visited the Save EMA website, and it is clear that those are not local figures found just in Strangford and Northern Ireland; they are found across the United Kingdom. I have read some touching stories and have spoken to pupils with a real desire to learn who rely heavily on EMA to continue learning.
	There is an indication that the learner support fund that is administered by colleges and school sixth forms will receive additional money. However, the amount of funding is not clear. Until that is clear, we have to try to understand how the system works. My fear, as the MP for Strangford, and that of a great many Members, particularly on the Opposition Benches-in fairness, it exists on the Government Benches too-is that if the coalition are not careful they will create a generation of young people who feel disadvantaged, and perhaps even abandoned. As was said earlier, there will be a lost generation if we are not careful, and a generation that feels angry. What can we do to stop that happening? It must be inherent in any strategy on child poverty that young people are educated and have an opportunity to stay in education to escape the poverty trap.
	Claus Moser, a German-born British academic, who was once a warden of Oxford, said:
	"Education costs money, but then so does ignorance."
	I urge the coalition to go back to its doctrine of last year, under which it supported EMA. It should help to raise a generation of educated British young people-experts in academic and practical fields-and not foster people who have no proper outlet for their energy. I support the motion and urge all hon. Members to do the same.

Several hon. Members: rose -

Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry not to be able to call any more Back Benchers, but we must move on to the winding-up speeches.

Iain Wright: This has been an important and good-quality debate, characterised by knowledge, determination and passion. It has been crowded and busy, with many more Members wishing to catch your eye, Mr Speaker, than have been able to speak. That reflects the importance of the matter and is a sign of the intrinsic unfairness that hon. Members and people outside see in the Government's decision to scrap the EMA. It reflects the number of young people who benefit from it who feel angry, betrayed and let down by the Government's broken promises.
	The Government's approach to the EMA, like their record throughout their education policy so far, is a curious mix of ideological zeal and simply making it up as they go along. On the one hand, their rhetoric is that they are keen to help young people to raise their ambitions and break down social, cultural and economic barriers to help them succeed. The whole House could agree with that, but on the other hand, as hon. Members have exposed time and again in the debate, the Government have disregarded clear evidence and gone back on their promises by scrapping one of the most successful policy interventions for decades in helping to achieve fairness.

Adrian Bailey: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Iain Wright: Very briefly, as I am short of time.

Adrian Bailey: Since the EMA was introduced in my local authority area of Sandwell, the number of students getting A-levels has doubled and the number of students from my constituency going to university has increased by 78%. Does my hon. Friend agree that those statistics underline the importance of the matter?

Iain Wright: Absolutely, and I shall come in a moment to how young people have benefited from impressive ways of raising attainment, encouraging increased participation and encouraging better behaviour.
	I wish to take the House back to the points that the Minister of State, Department for Education, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), made in June. As has been mentioned a number of times, he confirmed categorically in the House that the Government were committed to retaining the EMA. A matter of weeks later, they scrapped it. I have to ask, is anybody in charge at the Department for Education? Does anybody have a clue what is going on there? What utter incompetence!
	The justification for scrapping the EMA keeps moving, from "It hasn't been successful" to "Its impact has been limited" to "It hasn't been an effective use of public money." I suggest that the Government simply fail to recognise the improving life chances that it has provided. It has been a success, as my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) has just mentioned and as many other Members have said. It has started to break down the link between participation and success in further education and household income, as my hon. Friends the Members for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) and for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) said.
	For far too long, there has been a direct correlation between post-16 participation rates in education and household income. Frankly, moving on from school to the sixth form or an FE college depended not on whether a person was bright enough but on what their parents earned and where they lived. We have started to break that link with the EMA. It has been subject to one of the most extensive and robust evaluations of any education policy ever undertaken in England, begun and presided over by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett). He made a fantastic contribution to the debate, and I thank him for the points that he made.
	An evaluation by Ipsos MORI concluded that the majority of providers believed that EMA had been effective in reducing the number of NEETs, increasing learners' attainment and having a positive impact on their attendance and punctuality. It has raised participation by about 5% and attainment by about 3%, and the Government seem to acknowledge that. In a ministerial answer in another place in July, the Under-Secretary Lord Hill acknowledged that
	"the monetised benefits of EMA outweighed the costs".-[ Official Report, House of Lords, 13 July 2010; Vol. 720, c. WA118.]
	Sadly, the Secretary of State did not acknowledge that today.
	We heard from the Secretary of State an elegant, articulate and incorrect argument about the economic picture. We heard about academies, free schools, the English baccalaureate-everything, in fact, except EMA. I seem to recall that it took 19 minutes for those letters to pass his lips. Frankly, we saw alarming mood swings in him. It got to a point where we were really quite concerned about his behaviour. He had a bit of a hissy fit-a bit of a moment. It got to the point where the hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) said that it was slightly unfair of the Opposition to hold the Government to account.
	The Secretary of State rather lost control, just as he has lost control of his Department. Given his comments before the general election and the comments of the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, in June, to which I alluded-he committed to retaining EMA-what has the Chancellor done to wreck the economy that means they have to go back on their word? The Secretary of State said this afternoon that to govern is to choose, and that to choose is to prioritise, but it is very clear from his remarks that young people-or children, as he patronisingly referred to 16, 17 and 18-year-olds-are not the Government's priority.
	The Secretary of State made encouraging noises. He acknowledged that greater flexibility is needed in the system, and spoke of individual circumstances, courses that might be selected, rural areas and travel costs. The Opposition are keen to work with him to look at the matter again. However, I was surprised and shocked when in one of his more surreal, bizarre and psychedelic moments, he urged the good people of Hull to vote Liberal Democrat. That is a worrying trend among senior members of the Government. We saw it in Oldham East and Saddleworth. We look forward to the formal merger of the Conservatives and Lib Dems-or is it a takeover of the Conservatives by the Lib Dems?
	Moving away from the Secretary of State's more psychedelic moments, let me go back to his point about flexibility in the system. I agree with him that more flexibility is needed, but by introducing more flexibility, he runs the risk of making the system more complex, more bureaucratic and therefore more expensive.

Michael Gove: rose -

Iain Wright: I am more than happy to give way to the right hon. Gentleman-I just hope that he does not have a hissy fit. I hope that we see the nice Mr Gove, not the nasty one.

Michael Gove: I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman's speech-I am loving it-but in the four minutes remaining to him, will he answer the question that the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) conspicuously failed to answer? If he acknowledges that fewer people should receive EMA and that less money should be spent, will he say how many fewer people and how much less money? Until he can answer those questions- [ Interruption. ] I see that the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) has his own suggestion. As they say on "University Challenge", "No conferring; answers please."

Iain Wright: When I was a Minister in the Department for Children, Schools and Families, difficult decisions were made with regard to the £100 bonus that students received. We are prepared to talk about this. We want to ensure that we have the best possible system, but frankly, we cannot reduce a scheme of £600 million to around £50 million without a devastating impact on many communities, which was mentioned many times, including by my hon. Friends the Members for Halton (Derek Twigg) and for Huddersfield.
	My hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) made a very passionate speech, as she is always prone to do in this Chamber, mentioning Newham sixth-form college, which I have visited. My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy), who has always stood up for her constituents and particularly for young people, highlighted the poverty of ambition that the Government's decision produces. She also said that EMA is a something-for-something initiative, because students sign a contract and are bound by certain conditions in respect of attendance, punctuality and behaviour, which is an important point.
	It was nice to see a number of my hon. Friends from the north-east. My hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman) mentioned Queen Elizabeth sixth-form college and Darlington college. In a former life, I audited those colleges, for my sins. My hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead told how in his part of the world-I think I audited Gateshead college too-EMA changed the landscape of ambition with regard to staying on, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) also mentioned.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) mentioned the stance of the Liberal Democrats. Although they are taking over the Conservative party-as we heard from the Secretary of State-they have an important decision to make, as they did on tuition fees. The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) said that he is willing to work to ensure that we have the best possible system and that it is adequately funded, as the Opposition are. The Government need to think again. He is quoted in  The Times Educational Supplement as saying:
	"If what Labour is saying is a call for the government to rethink its plans, I will support that. There's some careful brokering to do."
	I absolutely agree with that, and I hope that he walks with us through the Lobbies tonight.

Simon Hughes: The hon. Gentleman knows that I respect him and value his judgment. I have been working with his colleagues openly, and with Ministers, and I think that the Government's amendment shows, as the Minister will say in a minute, that they are rethinking what they are doing, and that they are committed to trying to come up with a decent replacement. We will see whether we can deliver that, but I will try to do so, and I hope the shadow Minister will work with us.

Iain Wright: I greatly respect the right hon. Gentleman, but I am disappointed by his response and I hope he does not suffer too much from the spelks in his backside that he will have from sitting on the fence. The good people of Bermondsey and Southwark, and every single young person in the country, deserve better than that, and I hope we can work together in a consensual way.
	The sudden scrapping of EMA, together with the trebling of tuition fees and the abolition of the future jobs fund, constitutes a systematic assault on young people. On the day it was announced that the number of unemployed young people had risen again to reach its highest level since records began 20 years ago, it is clear that the Government have nothing to offer young people. Because of the Government's decisions and actions, there is a risk of a lost generation of unfulfilled potential, undeveloped talent and missed opportunities. We will be paying the social and economic price for this short-sighted decision for decades to come.
	I ask the Secretary of State and the Minister not to make the same mistakes they made with Building Schools for the Future and the school sports partnerships. Botched decisions, and a care-free attitude to the facts and the proper procedures of government, have all led to humiliation for the Secretary of State. I say to him, on behalf of 600,000 young people: please listen to advice, think again and retain the education maintenance allowance.

Nick Gibb: We have had a good debate on EMA, and by and large-there were one or two exceptions-a well-tempered one. There were excellent speeches by my hon. Friends the Members for Wycombe (Steve Baker), for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), for Nuneaton (Mr Jones), for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris), for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi), for Wells (Tessa Munt), for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss), for Croydon Central (Gavin Barwell) and for Beverley and Holderness (Mr Stuart). There were also passionate but temperate speeches by the hon. Members for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) and for Westminster North (Ms Buck) and the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett).
	I listened carefully to the speeches of the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright). It is easy to oppose a cut in spending programmes. I was in opposition for 13 years and know that it is always tempting for an Opposition to back a campaign and jump on the proverbial bandwagon, but as every accountant knows, wherever there is a credit there has to be a debit. If hon. Members oppose the ending of a half-a-billion pound spending programme, they would have to find that money from elsewhere, but not a single one of the 20 Labour Members who spoke said which cuts they would make to fund that spending commitment.

David Blunkett: As a matter of fact, I did make an alternative proposition, which might not be universally welcomed by my party colleagues, which was that post-16 child benefit should be assessable for tax purposes.

Nick Gibb: That is the first of Labour's policies to be put on to its blank sheet of paper; no doubt it will be one element in its debate.
	The question for the Opposition is this: would they take this money from the schools budget?

Tom Blenkinsop: rose -

Nick Gibb: I will not give way now, as the speech by the hon. Gentleman's Front-Bench colleague, the hon. Member for Hartlepool, went over time slightly.
	We have been determined to protect the money that goes to schools and the front line, and we have managed to ensure that school funding is protected in cash terms and will rise to cover increases in pupil numbers.
	Perhaps the Opposition are arguing that there should be no cuts elsewhere, however. Perhaps they are arguing that they would cut the deficit more slowly, and allow it to remain a little longer-another half a billion pounds here, another billion there-so ensuring that we continue to pay enormous interest charges, which now stand at £120 million every day. That could be the Labour party's approach: challenging the capital markets and calling the bluff of the people who invest the pension funds in sovereign debt to pull the plug or downgrade Britain's credit rating.
	That is not a risk that the coalition Government are prepared to take. Greece provides an example from not too far away, and Ireland is nearer still. We are not prepared to risk this country's future. We are not prepared to plunge Britain into a currency and debt crisis, and we are not prepared to delay our economic recovery by failing to take the action that is necessary to get the public finances back under control. If we were to do so, young people-the people whom the Opposition purport to be representing today-would bear the brunt of the consequences of this failure. It is young people who suffer when companies freeze recruitment, and it is ensuring that our recovery happens sooner rather than later that lies at the heart of every difficult decision on spending taken by every Minister in this Government.
	The overriding tenet of the coalition Government is to close the attainment gap between those from the poorest backgrounds and those from the wealthiest, so in making these changes to EMA we have been determined to ensure that no student is prevented from staying on in education because of genuine financial hardship. The hon. Member for Wigan made a passionate and thoughtful speech, but all her arguments can and will be addressed by the replacement support that we intend to put in place. It is wrong to undermine the research that was commissioned by the last Labour Government and carried out by the highly respectable National Foundation for Educational Research. It had a representative sample size of more than 2,000.

Nicholas Dakin: rose -

Nick Gibb: I will not give way.
	We are targeting some of the savings from EMA to those young people who the NFER survey showed might not have stayed in education but for EMA.

Jim Fitzpatrick: Will the Minister give way?

Nick Gibb: I will not.
	At the moment, EMA is paid to 45% of all 16 to 18-year-olds who stay on in education. That is not a properly targeted system and it is an inefficient use of taxpayers' money in the current economic climate. Our intention is to focus resources on those in real financial hardship to ensure that every young person can continue their education. We are consulting the Association of Colleges, the National Union of Students, the Sutton Trust, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), and college principals and others to work out the best way to use those funds.
	We are putting in place measures to ensure that the least well-off receive the support they need to stay in education, and the determination of the coalition Government to close the attainment gap between those from the wealthiest backgrounds and those from the poorest lies at the heart of all our education policies. That is why we are focusing on raising standards of behaviour in our schools; it is why we are tackling reading and literacy in primary schools; it is why we have introduced the baccalaureate to ensure that more children receive a broad education; it is why we are expanding the academies programme and free schools, particularly in deprived areas; and it is why we have introduced the pupil premium.

Tom Blenkinsop: rose -

Nick Gibb: I will not give way.
	My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) made a thoughtful and constructive speech, reflecting her expertise and passion. Her comments about the most vulnerable and disadvantaged students were right. She said that some groups have to be protected come what may, and they will be. It is precisely those groups that we intend to target with our support fund.
	My hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) was right when he called for support for poorer students and said that we need to work with local authorities on their transport duties. He asked a number of questions, and I can tell him that we are working with other Departments, particularly the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department for Transport. I take on board his point about the lack of timely scheduled transport in rural areas. He is also right to ask about young carers, looked-after children and young people, because they are some of the very vulnerable groups that we are particularly concerned about. Many other hon. Members also raised the issue of student transport costs, and we are going to build those into the discretionary part of the support fund.
	The Government have a duty to tackle this country's record budget deficit, which is the largest in the G20.

Rosie Winterton: claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No.  36 ).
	 Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
	 Question agreed  to .

Question put accordingly (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the original words stand part of the Question.
	 The House divided: Ayes 258, Noes 317.

Question accordingly negatived.
	 Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the proposed words be there added.
	 The House divided: Ayes 319, Noes 256.

Question accordingly agreed to.
	 The Speaker declared the main Question, as amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)).
	 Resolved,
	That this House believes in full participation in education and training for young people up to the age of 18 and considers that support must be in place to allow those who face the greatest barriers to participation to access this opportunity; notes that the previous Government left this country with one of the largest budget deficits in the world and that savings have had to be made in order to avoid burdening future generations; further notes that the Government has increased funding for deprivation within the 16 to 19 budget and has already begun to replace the current education maintenance allowance system with more targeted support for those who face genuine barriers, including travel; and commits the Government to working with young people, schools and colleges and others outside and inside Parliament on arrangements for supporting students in further education and on improving access to, enthusiasm for and participation in further and higher education.

deferred divisions

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No.  41A(3) ),
	That, at this day's sitting, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply to the Motion in the name of Secretary Theresa May relating to Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism.- ( Mr Francois .)
	 Question agreed to.

Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

Damian Green: I beg to move,
	That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 17 January, be approved.
	There remains a severe and sustained terrorist threat to the UK and its interests abroad. The Government are determined to do all that they can to minimise this threat. Proscription of terrorist organisations is an important part of the Government's strategy to tackle terrorist activities. We would therefore like to add the organisation Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan-the TTP-to the list of 46 international terrorist organisations that are listed under schedule 2 of the Terrorism Act 2000. This is the ninth proscription order amending schedule 2 to that Act.
	Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000 provides a power for the Home Secretary to proscribe an organisation if she believes it is concerned in terrorism. The Act specifies that an organisation is concerned in terrorism if it commits or participates in acts of terrorism, prepares for terrorism, promotes or encourages terrorism-that includes the unlawful glorification of terrorism-or is otherwise concerned in terrorism. The Home Secretary may proscribe an organisation only if she believes it is concerned in terrorism. If the test is met, she may, at her discretion, proscribe the organisation. In considering whether to exercise this discretion, she takes into account a number of factors, which were announced to Parliament during the passage of the Terrorism Bill in 2000.

Jeremy Corbyn: It is not on the particular organisation that I want to intervene, but as I understand it, the debate is restricted to that organisation. Can the Minister tell us whether he has any plans to review any other organisations that are on the list, such as those representing the Kurdish and Tamil communities, as a way of promoting political dialogue and discourse to bring about peaceful resolutions to conflict, rather than people resorting to violence?

Damian Green: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He will understand that, for obvious reasons, it is not the Government's policy, and never has been the policy under any Government, to discuss whether an organisation is or is not under consideration for proscription. It would clearly be foolish for any Minister to give running commentaries on what is going on with individual organisations, so I do not propose to start now.

Julian Lewis: My hon. Friend said that this was the ninth in a series of proscriptions. Bearing in mind some of the reservations that were expressed at the time that the original legislation was enacted, can he reassure the House that there has been no sign of any previously proscribed organisations seeking to get round the proscription by such devices as changing their names?

Damian Green: Indeed, that is one of the activities that concerns Ministers and it is one of the things that has happened in the past. Organisations have sought to reappear under different names and have been re-proscribed. We are extremely aware of the very serious problem to which my hon. Friend refers.

Keith Vaz: May I take the Minister back to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn)? I do not think my hon. Friend was challenging the subject matter before the House. He was raising the issue of the process. The Act under which the proscriptions are laid before the House is 10 years old. Is the Minister satisfied that the way in which proscription is challenged is robust and will give organisations the opportunity to put their case to the tribunal? That is the point being made, not a challenge to the subject matter.

Damian Green: I take the right hon. Gentleman's point. As he knows, all proscribed organisations are reviewed on an annual basis by a cross-Government group that assists the Home Secretary to come to decisions on these matters. Each case is carefully considered, taking into account all the detail as time passes. The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point that organisations can change over time. There is an appeal mechanism not just to the Home Secretary, but beyond the Home Secretary to an independent committee, so I am confident that organisations can present a case that they have changed. The system and the Act allow for that.
	Proscription is a tough power, as is clear from the various interventions, but it is necessary. Its effect is that the proscribed organisation is outlawed and is unable to operate in the UK. Proscription means that it is a criminal offence for a person to belong to or invite support for a proscribed organisation. It is also a criminal offence to arrange a meeting in support of a proscribed organisation or to wear clothing or carry articles in public which arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of the proscribed organisation.
	Given the wide-ranging impact of proscription, the Home Secretary exercises her power to proscribe an organisation only after thoroughly reviewing all the available relevant information and evidence on the organisation. This includes open source material, as well as intelligence material, legal advice, and advice that reflects consultation across Government, including with the intelligence and law enforcement agencies. Decisions on proscription are taken with great care by the Home Secretary, and it is also right that the case for proscribing new organisations must be approved by both Houses.
	Having carefully considered all the evidence, the Home Secretary firmly believes that the TTP is currently concerned in terrorism. Although hon. Members will, I hope, appreciate that I am unable to go into much detail, I am able to summarise. The TTP is a prolific terrorist organisation that has committed a large number of mass-casualty attacks in Pakistan. It has announced various objectives and demands, such as the enforcement of sharia, resistance against the Pakistani army and the removal of NATO forces from Afghanistan. Examples of recent attacks include a suicide car bomb attack outside a courthouse in Mingora in March 2009 that killed 14 people and injured 130. Another attack on a police station in Lakki Marwat in September 2010 killed 17 people. Although the majority of attacks have been against military and Government targets, the TTP is also known to target religious events. In September 2010, a suicide attack on a Shi'a rally killed 50 people.
	The group has also claimed responsibility for attacks on western targets. For example, in June 2010 an attack on a NATO convoy just outside Islamabad killed seven people and destroyed 50 vehicles. In April 2010, an attack on the US consulate in Peshawar killed at least six. The TTP has also threatened to attack the west and was implicated in the failed Times square car bomb attack last May.
	Proscription will align the UK with the emerging international consensus against this murderous organisation. The TTP is already designated by the United States and proscribed in Pakistan. The proscription of the TTP will contribute to making the UK a hostile environment for terrorists and their supporters, and show our condemnation of the terrorist attacks the group continues to carry out in Pakistan. Proscribing the TTP will enable the police to carry out disruptive action more effectively against any supporters in the UK.
	I should make it clear to hon. Members that proscription is not targeted at any particular faith or social grouping, but is based on clear evidence that an organisation is concerned in terrorism. The TTP is not representative of Pakistani or wider Muslim communities in the UK. The organisation has carried out a large number of attacks in Pakistan resulting in large numbers of civilian casualties. It is clear that these actions appal the vast majority of British Muslims.
	As a final point, I have already said that the Government recognise that proscription is a tough power that can have a wide-ranging impact.

Robert Halfon: I welcome my hon. Friend's statement. Will he confirm that the Government are looking, as they have said in the past, at proscribing Hizb ut-Tahrir, and the political wing of Hezbollah, which still operates in the United Kingdom?

Damian Green: I can only repeat to my hon. Friend what I said to the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). For obvious reasons, it is not this Government's, nor was it the previous Government's, policy to discuss whether an organisation is or is not under consideration for proscription. He will be aware that Hizb ut-Tahrir is an organisation about which we have real concerns, and I can confirm that its activities are kept under review. But as I say, it would be unwise to promote a running commentary on any individual organisation.
	Any organisation that is proscribed, or anyone affected by the proscription of an organisation, has an appeal mechanism, as I was saying to the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee. They can apply to the Home Secretary for the organisation to be de-proscribed, and if the application is refused, the applicant can appeal to the Proscribed Organisations Appeal Commission, a special tribunal that is able to consider the sensitive material that often underpins proscription decisions. A special advocate can be appointed to represent the interests of the applicant in closed sessions of the commission. I hope that gives some reassurance to those who were concerned about that.

Mark Reckless: With respect to any running commentary from the Home Office, my recollection is that we gave something approaching a commitment, at least in opposition, that Hizb ut-Tahrir was an organisation that we wished to proscribe. I understand that there may be difficulties, but it is reasonable to press the Minister for a clearer understanding of the process with regard to this organisation.

Damian Green: With respect to my hon. Friend, I really do not think that it is sensible in such sensitive matters for Ministers to give running commentaries at the Dispatch Box on whether organisations might be about to be proscribed. That applies to any organisation of any kind and background, for obvious reasons that I think he will recognise. That would not be a sensible course of action. There is ample evidence to suggest that the TTP is concerned in terrorism.

Shabana Mahmood: Given what the Minister has just said, is it his view that the Prime Minister, as Leader of the Opposition, made a mistake when he said that he would ban Hizb ut-Tahrir?

Damian Green: No, it is not. The Prime Minister had, and has, concerns about Hizb ut-Tahrir, as I hope did previous Prime Ministers, and as I hope does the shadow Home Secretary. As I have just said, its activities are kept under review.

Shabana Mahmood: Will the Minister give way?

Damian Green: No, because the hon. Lady has already intervened and is about to speak.  [ Interruption. ] I regret that Opposition Front Benchers regard the matter as humorous. Many people have been killed by the TTP, which is what the House is debating this evening. There are clearly serious issues about how this country attacks terrorism and defends itself against terrorists, so it is not the time for Opposition Front Benchers to regard something as amusing. There is ample evidence to suggest that the TTP is concerned in terrorism, and I believe that it is right to add the organisation to the list of proscribed organisations under schedule 2 to the Terrorism Act 2000. I hope that Members on both sides of the House, particularly those on the Opposition Front Bench, will support the Government in that action, which is designed to promote the safety of the British people.

Shabana Mahmood: I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the Government's reasons for the order. Let me clarify that no one on the Opposition Front Bench finds these matters amusing in any way whatsoever. I note, however, that the Minister was somewhat under pressure when the Prime Minister's conduct in matters of national security and the banning of organisations was cited. We were merely pointing out that the Prime Minister does not have a glorious record in that regard.
	Let me reiterate at the outset for the benefit of the House the approach adopted to counter-terrorism matters by the shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls):
	"We, the Opposition, will take an evidence-based approach which gives the greatest importance to national security in coming to a view on counter-terrorism issues, and therefore wherever possible we will seek to work with the government and will seek consensus."
	To that end, I can tell the House that, despite frequent earlier requests, my right hon. Friend received only in the past hour a Privy Council briefing on the organisation that is the subject of the order. As I have said, we are happy to seek a consensus-based approach on matters of national security, but I point out to Government Front Benchers that that would be helped along somewhat if they provided Privy Council briefings in a more timely manner.

Robert Halfon: To be fair, given what the hon. Lady has just said about Hizb ut-Tahrir, it was Tony Blair who first said that the organisation should be proscribed, and nothing ever happened subsequently.

Shabana Mahmood: I will return to the issue of Hizb ut-Tahrir shortly and hopefully deal with the substance of the hon. Gentleman's intervention.
	I have a number of questions about the order for the Minister. Paragraph 7.2 of the explanatory memorandum states:
	"The Secretary of State has regard to additional criteria (announced by the Secretary of State in 2001) in deciding as a matter of discretion whether or not to proscribe an organisation. These are:...The nature and scale of the organisation's activities...The specific threat that it poses to the UK...The specific threat that it poses to British nationals overseas...The extent of the organisation's presence in the UK...The need to support international partners in the fight against terrorism".
	Those criteria seem to be perfectly sensible in providing the basic test against which a Secretary of State may decide to exercise his or her discretion, but will the Minister shed some light on how, in this particular case, they have been applied? The 2001 criteria are not contained in primary or secondary legislation, so in light of that are they under regular review by the Home Office? Will he give us some details about how the Government intend to keep them under review? How frequently will that be done?
	Given that the criteria were stated first in 2001, does the Minister consider them to be fully comprehensive still? Could they usefully be added to, and are there any plans to do so? He will be aware that there is a large and settled British Pakistani community in this country, and many British citizens from that community travel regularly to Pakistan to visit family and friends. What is his assessment of the threat that Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan poses to them? That will be a matter of some interest to the British Pakistani community, so I hope that he will take this opportunity to address it. Related to that, is Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan operative in this country? How has the threat that the organisation poses in this country changed since it was set up in 2007, and what is the extent of its operations in this country?
	The Minister will also be aware that, as a result of the devastating floods in Pakistan last year, the effects of which are still being felt by the Pakistani population, a large number of British aid workers operate in Pakistan and are involved in vital efforts to provide humanitarian relief and assistance to the flood affectees. Soon after the floods, Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan made a number of statements, widely reported in the British media, threatening British aid workers. Will the Minister update the House on the threat posed to British aid workers engaged in flood relief work in Pakistan, and will he give some detail about the efforts being made to provide the maximum possible security and support to them?
	The organisation was set up in 2007, proscribed by the Pakistani authorities in 2008 and designated by the United States in September 2010. What prompted the Government to follow suit now? How was the timing of the decision arrived at? There is, of course, necessary and close co-operation between the Pakistani authorities and the Government in combating terrorism. Is the Minister confident that the Government are doing enough to support the Pakistani authorities and society as a whole to prevent the rise of Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan.

Keith Vaz: I am listening carefully to my hon. Friend. Is she satisfied about the current process for challenging decisions? We understand that once the House makes a decision, an organisation is proscribed, but there is a process for challenging such moves, and that is right in a democratic society. Is she satisfied with that process, or do the Opposition wish to make any changes to it?

Shabana Mahmood: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his intervention. In fact, I intended to put that question to the Minister in relation to any plans that the Government might have to look again at the legal process of appeal for an organisation that has been proscribed. I know that, in previous debates when the previous Labour Government proscribed organisations, my right hon. Friend raised the potential deficiencies in the processes for proscription and for challenging proscription, so can the Minister state the Government's plans in that regard?
	Do we know whether other countries intend to proscribe the organisation in the near future? What co-operation has there been between the Government and our allies engaged in operations in Afghanistan and other parts of the world in terms of proscribing it? Will there be continued co-operation, and what is the extent of such work?
	Will the Minister give the House some details about the procedure by which the Government intend to keep the list of proscribed organisations under review? Will such reviews take place monthly, quarterly or less regularly, and can we be confident that all organisations that pose a threat to our national security are proscribed?
	The House will be aware that during today's Prime Minister's questions, my hon. Friend the Member for Eltham (Clive Efford) asked the Prime Minister about his plans to proscribe another organisation, Hizb ut-Tahrir. This was also mentioned by the Minister. Although Hizb ut-Tahrir is not subject to this order, the Prime Minister's comments about it raise questions about the Government's policy on proscription as a whole.
	Further to what was said at Prime Minister's questions, my right hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State has written to the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary. Let me refer to his letter, because it is important for the House to know this. His letter points out that last year the Prime Minister made a commitment to banning Hizb ut-Tahrir
	"despite having not seen any of the evidence".
	He continues:
	"The clear suggestion was that proscribing this organisation was a simple act that could be made without any legal obstacles on the basis of the...evidence"
	that was available in the public domain. He asks the Prime Minister a number of questions, which I will repeat for the Minister to comment on. He asks the Prime Minister when he intends to fulfil his commitment on Hizb ut-Tahrir and on what dates the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have met to discuss the matter. He asks:
	"Will you share with me, on Privy Council terms"-
	and, one hopes, in a timely way-
	"the latest available evidence about"
	Hizb ut-Tahrir's
	"activities?"
	He says:
	"On the basis of the available evidence, is it still your intention to proscribe this organisation?"
	and asks whether the Prime Minister has
	"any plans to amend the relevant legal tests"
	as set out in the Terrorism Act 2000 and amended in the Terrorism Act 2006.
	Perhaps the Minister could shed some light on the Government's response to those questions, because it is important that the House has placed before it the Government's exact procedures and intentions in relation to proscription. Proscription should be a matter of last resort in order to safeguard our national security, and not the subject of off-the-cuff remarks or ill-thought-out pronouncements by the Prime Minister when he was Leader of the Opposition.
	As I have said, we will work with the Government to protect our national security, and in that spirit we will support the order.

Tom Brake: I thank the Minister for setting out the reasons for proscribing Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan. I have a couple of questions that I hope he might be able to answer, although I accept that if there are security considerations or the information is not in the public domain he may well be unable to do so. I will understand if that is the case.
	First, on the catalyst for making this decision, was it prompted by the attempted car bombing in Times square in May 2010? As the Minister will know, the briefing from CTC Sentinel makes it clear that this organisation had been very active in Pakistan since 2007. Secondly, has there been any evidence of any activity in the UK, or any expectation that any assets may be seized?
	I want to stress again that I will understand if the Minister is unable to respond to those questions, because clearly there may be security considerations attached. I think that the Government are taking the appropriate action. If he is able to answer them, that will benefit all those in the Chamber, but I am confident that the matter will be sorted out very shortly.

Keith Vaz: I hope not to detain the House for too long. I know this is a special day for you, Mr Speaker, and I would not like to keep you away from the birthday celebrations that are no doubt being planned for you in the Speaker's house once you vacate the Chair.
	This is a very important debate, and it is right that there is a full House to hear what the Minister has to say. In previous debates of this kind, the House has been almost empty; there is an assumption that such orders will go through automatically. That is why I am grateful for the way in which the Minister put the Government's case, and for the way in which the Opposition said-I think-that they will support the Government.

Shabana Mahmood: indicated assent.

Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend nods. It is right that the questions that she put forward should be answered at some stage-not necessarily this evening, but as soon as possible. I associate myself with the remarks of the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), who raised issues that have to be addressed.
	I sat through a number of debates on such orders on the Government Benches, when the Labour party was in power, in which Ministers came to the Dispatch Box and made the case for proscription. It is difficult for the House, because it cannot really challenge Ministers when they make such a case, because they come in good faith and they are in possession of all the information, much of it confidential and much of it given to them by the security services. We therefore accept what the Minister says in good faith.
	Just the name of the organisation, the Pakistan Taliban, makes one want to ban it immediately because of the word Taliban. It is obviously not a friendly organisation. Although I know nothing about the organisation-I have heard as much as I know about it from the Minister tonight-I am happy to support what the Government are doing.
	However, I caution the Minister and the Opposition-a number of Members raised this point when the Labour party was in government-to look again at the process that should be adopted when organisations want to challenge the decision. I was in the House when Mujaheddin-e-Khalq managed to get its proscription lifted. As the Minister knows, it was proscribed in March 2001, it challenged the decision in June 2001, and it was deproscribed seven years later. It took the organisation seven years to make its legal case against proscription. Therefore, from the point of view of the public, as opposed to that of the organisations, it is important at this time in the life of the Terrorism Act 2000, which has been with us for 10 years, to review the processes. I would offer a review by the Home Affairs Committee-I see that the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) is here-but because the Government's agenda on home affairs is so exhausting and plentiful, it is difficult to find the time to look at this issue. I am sure that we will do so, and certainly in the life of this Parliament.
	It is important to consider the process. I will use the example put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), which involves a constituency interest for myself and others, of the previous Government's decision to ban the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. As you know from visiting the island of Sri Lanka, Mr Speaker, the war is over. The LTTE has been defeated, its leaders have all been killed, including Prabhakaran, who was killed as part of the conflict, and the Sri Lankan Government have said that the LTTE no longer exists. However, members of the community who wish to support charitable causes in Sri Lanka are still sometimes questioned about their involvement, including those who take part in the annual ceremony that takes place on 26 November each year to celebrate the lives of those who have been killed.
	Although this is, of course, a narrow order and the proscription applies to those who support the Pakistan Taliban, it is possible that other members of the community who are completely unassociated with this terrible organisation will in some way be caught up in the problem. I think that is what my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) was trying to allude to when she put her questions to the Minister.
	I do not expect the answers tonight. After all, the Minister present is the Minister for Immigration, not counter-terrorism. I therefore do not expect the answers, although he is obviously very well briefed, a highly intelligent Member of this House, a hard-working Minister and all the other nice things I could say about him. I have mentioned your birthday, Mr Speaker, but it was also the Minister's birthday on Monday, so we have to be nice to him. The questions that I have asked must be considered, and I hope that if the Minister cannot give me the information that I want today, the Minister with responsibility for counter-terrorism, perhaps in a letter to my Committee, or the Home Secretary next time she addresses the issue, will be able to put my mind at rest.
	I fully support the order and hope that the whole House will. We look forward to ensuring that these matters, which by their nature have the possibility of affecting the civil liberties of citizens of this country, are kept under review as closely as possible.

Kris Hopkins: I thank the Minister for his opening statement and acknowledge that we have to accept such recommendations with a degree of trust because we cannot have access to all the information that he and others have. I know that he will have sought and listened to legal advice, as his comments reflected.
	I welcome the Minister's saying that the order is not about targeting the Pakistani community or the Muslim community; it is about a group of individuals whose activities need to be addressed and challenged. The Minister's clear statement of that reassurance is really important for a community that has gone through a long period of feeling that it is targeted at every level.
	As the Minister said, there is disgust and revulsion at the violence that has been carried out by the individuals in question, against civilians in the vast majority of cases, because cowards like to target civilians. Families and individuals have suffered as a consequence of that violence, and the leadership shown by the House in supporting the order will send out a clear statement about our solidarity in the desire to fight terrorism wherever in the world it manifests itself.

Chris Bryant: I, too, broadly agree with the system that we have in place for proscribing organisations. It is important not only for protecting ourselves and the security of those whom we represent but for playing our role in the international community in preventing terrorism and the spread of terrorism.
	It is perhaps worth noting that the organisation whose terrorism I have personally experienced is Euskadi ta Askatasuna-ETA-in Basque Spain, where I grew up as a child, which is one of the proscribed organisations.
	I agree fully with the addition of Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan to the list, but I wish to ask the Minister some questions about the full implications of the system and how we arrive at the decision to proscribe some people and organisations and not others. The 2000 Act is pretty clear in its interpretation of what terrorism is. It states:
	"In this Act 'terrorism' means the use or threat of action where...the use or threat is designed to influence the government or an international governmental organisation or to intimidate the public or a section of the public".
	Section 2 adds that action is included if it
	"involves serious violence against a person",
	and section 4 states that it
	"includes action outside the United Kingdom".
	That is obviously vital in the case of many of the organisations that we proscribe, although I note that the elements that the Government consider include not only the specific threat that an organisation poses to the UK but the need to support international partners in the fight against terrorism.
	I suggest, as others have this evening, that we have perhaps not quite got the full list yet. I say that not as a reference to Hizb ut-Tahrir in particular but because those involved in the arrest, torture and murder of Sergei Magnitsky, and all those involved in the corruption that he unveiled in Russia, are and have been engaged in a form of economic terrorism against this country. I hope that the Home Office will therefore look at whether such an order is precisely the right vehicle to use to seize any of those people's assets in this country, or to proscribe them from coming to this country. Sergei Magnitsky was working for a British company in Russia. He unveiled a vast nexus of corruption in the Russian system-$230 million-worth-and he was murdered in prison, having been put there without trial, and there has been absolutely no investigation since his death.
	There have been moves similar to those allowed for by this order in other countries. In the United States, Senators McCain and Cardin have co-sponsored a law-the Justice for Sergei Magnitsky Act 2010-that will impose visa-entry bans and asset freezes on those Russians who took part. On 16 December 2010, the European Parliament recommended a very similar set of proposals-a vote on which was carried by 318 to 163.
	The Minister may think that such an order is a wholly inappropriate way in which to proceed in relation to those people, but I very much hope that he will keep the matter under review.

Jeremy Corbyn: I hope you are enjoying your birthday, Mr Speaker, and that this is an appropriate way to celebrate it.
	I hold no brief for Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan, and I do not wish to defend or support them in any way this evening. However, I want to follow the points made by other hon. Members on the process, which is not satisfactory. We add to the list of banned organisations during a Parliament, but the additions cannot be amended and the subject of the proscribed list is not open to general debate. There is therefore an argument for reviewing that process, and I hope the House heard what the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee said-he seemed to indicate that his Committee might well be prepared to conduct an inquiry into the process.
	The legislation is now 10 years old. According to the list that I have just downloaded, 46 organisations are proscribed under the 2000 Act, and a further group of organisations are banned in Ireland-presumably that ban applies in this country too. The list contains organisations that clearly no longer exist, and organisations that have changed their names and exist under others. It therefore seems to me to be high time to review the whole question.
	I take the point made by the hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins). Proscribing an organisation from a particular country or community affects that country or community, and it affects the attitudes that officials take towards them. It is therefore necessary to consider such things very seriously. For example, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) asked about the LTTE, but it no longer exists and the situation in Sri Lanka has changed dramatically. I would have thought that we ought to look at that as a way of promoting political discourse and dialogue to ensure that the Tamil community has a place for negotiation, representation and political action. That is surely what we are trying to achieve.

Keith Vaz: Another point is the pressure that proscriptions put on the police and their resources. We must be very careful how we proceed with proscription, because the police must go out there and interview members of the community, and possibly prosecute people.

Jeremy Corbyn: Indeed we must, because proscription puts a requirement-not just a pressure-on the police to do those things. Therefore, there is the potential for an enormous waste of resources, not to mention damage to community relations. After all, in this country, as I understand it, we try to include and incorporate, and to build good community relations rather than divisions.

Rehman Chishti: As somebody of Pakistani origin, may I say that the wider expatriate Pakistani community will fully support the decision to proscribe this terrorist organisation-there is no other way to describe it? Also, the people in Pakistan want a safe, prosperous Pakistan, whereas this organisation is committed to everything that works against that. This organisation was proscribed in 2008 in Pakistan, in 2010 in the United States of America and now in the United Kingdom. Should these periods not be shortened? As the host country of Pakistan proscribed it in 2008, should it not then have been proscribed in other countries soon after, so that it does not have the chance to launder money in other countries?

Jeremy Corbyn: rose-

Mr Speaker: Order. Subsequent interventions should not imitate that which we have just heard, in terms of length at any rate; it was very erudite but also a bit long.

Jeremy Corbyn: I also think it is an intervention that ought to have been directed at the Minister, not me, and perhaps the Minister will respond to it.
	Obviously, there is a point in what the hon. Gentleman has said, but I also think it is important that this country does not just automatically proscribe an organisation because Government X, Y or Z has said so. If we did that, our history would be very different. Apartheid South Africa banned the African National Congress, yet the ANC had offices in this country, organised in this country, was completely open in this country, and eventually apartheid fell and the ANC became the Government of South Africa. I think we have to be a little careful about making instant responses all the time to banning requests made by particular regimes. I hold no brief whatever for the organisation under discussion tonight; I just think one should be slightly cautious.
	Kongra Gele Kurdistan is listed, together with a number of Somali organisations. I have a very large Kurdish community in my constituency, as well as a very large Somali community. None of the people I speak to or represent holds any brief for violence or terrorist actions. They want a political development and a political solution to their problems in Somalia and Kurdistan. I suspect that the Minister will have difficulty in replying to this point tonight, but I urge him to look seriously at those organisations and to review the need for there to be a positive democratic dialogue and process with the Kurdish people in order to bring about a peaceful resolution in Turkey, and the same goes for Somalia.
	Banning and proscription do not necessarily work. What works is political dialogue. Let us consider what happened in Northern Ireland. Gerry Adams and John Hume came to an agreement and we eventually brought about a whole peace process there. It is important to look for positive solutions, rather than instant banning and the use of the state apparatus to suppress legitimate political activity.

Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman argues that the democratic process and dialogue cannot take place because some of these groups have been proscribed. He seems to suggest that that in some way hampers democratic dialogue. Clearly, these organisations do not speak for their communities as a whole, however. He mentioned that many of these groups no longer exist. Is it not the case that they no longer exist simply because they were proscribed?

Jeremy Corbyn: There are various reasons why they are not in existence, some of which are to do with proscription, but some of which are to do with military activities in the countries concerned. There is a whole host of reasons.
	My point is that proscribing organisations that probably do not exist, and in some cases naming people or suggesting naming people who are alleged to be representatives of those organisations, in turn limits their opportunity for legitimate political activity and political dialogue. I have drawn the parallel with what happened in Northern Ireland, and the parallel of the attitude that was adopted not by this country but by others towards the ANC in South Africa when the apartheid regime wanted it banned worldwide. I just think one has to look to bring about a solution to such problems, rather than having too simple a process.
	I hold no brief whatever for the organisation under discussion, and the will of the House is clearly that the order should be passed. I just wanted to use this opportunity-I thank you for allowing me it, Mr Speaker-to encourage the Minister to consider the points that have been put by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), myself and others who have concerns about the process involved in this order.

Mr Speaker: With the leave of the House, I call the Minister to reply to the debate.

Damian Green: Thank you, Mr Speaker, and felicitations.
	I am grateful to the House for the many important points raised and, in particular, for the tone of the debate on the key issue of the process. Clearly, the Government are exercising very serious powers, so it needs to be done carefully and kept under proper review. I assure hon. Members on both sides of the House that I very much share their feelings about that.
	I should gently say to the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) that I am genuinely bemused by her point about the timeliness of the briefing given to the shadow Home Secretary. I understand that he asked for a briefing on Privy Council terms early this afternoon and received it later this afternoon. I genuinely do not know how much faster the Government could have been expected to react to that request, so I am puzzled by the point she made.
	The hon. Lady asked a number of important questions, some of which were about the criteria and the process. Those legitimate questions were echoed by other hon. Members, not least by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake). There seems to be a slight misunderstanding involving the absolute nature of proscription for ever, because this arrangement is not like that. I think it will help all those who asked the questions if I simply go through what has to happen under the Terrorism Act 2000 for a body to be proscribed.
	The Home Secretary may proscribe an organisation if she believes
	"that it is concerned in terrorism."
	What "concerned in terrorism" means under the Act is that an organisation
	"(a) commits or participates in acts of terrorism,
	(b) prepares for terrorism,
	(c) promotes or encourages terrorism"-
	that includes "unlawful glorification"-
	"or
	(d) is otherwise concerned in terrorism."
	If that statutory test is met, the Secretary of State will take into account other factors when deciding whether or not to proscribe. Those criteria are: the nature and scale of the organisation's activities; the specific threat that it poses to the UK; the specific threat that it poses to British nationals overseas; the extent of the organisation's presence in the UK; and the need to support other members of the international community in the global fight against terrorism.
	Most importantly, the Home Secretary comes to this decision after having received advice from a cross-departmental group. That group reviews the proscription of all proscribed organisations on a rolling 12-month basis, so there is a permanent rolling programme of checking which groups are proscribed and whether it is appropriate to continue with the proscription. That seems to me to be a proper process, because I take the points made by hon. Members on both sides about how groups can change and how, in all these areas of this world, it is of course in the interests of the British Government and the British people not only to combat terrorism-that is clearly important-but to try to foster a democratic dialogue so that troubled countries can move into the democratic ambit.
	I wish to answer some of the other detailed questions, in so far as I can. I was asked by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood and by my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington about TTP's activities and presence in the UK. I am sure that the House will understand that I cannot comment on intelligence matters and details, but I can say that the TTP aspires to mount attacks in the west, as was demonstrated by its involvement in the failed Times square car bomb attack, and TTP leaders have publicly threatened the UK in the past. The group also threatens this country by targeting our interests and allied interests overseas: for instance, the group claimed responsibility for a suicide bomb attack on the United Nations World Food Programme office in Islamabad in October 2009, which killed five people.
	The hon. Lady rightly asked what the UK Government are doing to help to stabilise Pakistan. We actively engage the Government of Pakistan to implement political reform in the tribal areas. In addition, through the conflict prevention fund, the Foreign Office is spending £3.65 million a year on reducing the governance and security vacuum that evidently exists in that part of the world, improving Afghan-Pakistan relations and co-operation, and reducing insecurity in Balochistan. So we are playing a very active role.

Julian Lewis: I am still not quite clear about one aspect. Surely the banning of an organisation in this country is carried out because there is reason to suspect that it is going to try to be active in this country. It is not simply a matter of trying to perform a terrorist act, which would be a crime in any case, but of trying to function in this country. Is there any evidence that either this group or its sympathisers are currently active in this country? There are of course all sorts of terrorist groups around the world that are not active in this country which we do not seek to add them to our own proscribed list.

Damian Green: If I were to answer my hon. Friend in detail, I would reveal intelligence information. I am sure that he, with his distinguished background in defence, would not want me to do that. I would refer him to the list of criteria I mentioned, which includes attacks on British citizens and British interests, along with those of our allies around the world. I think it would be beneficial if he studied those criteria carefully.
	The hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood asked about the review. I hope she is reassured not just by what I said about the rolling 12-month review programme, but by the fact that there is an appeal mechanism-first to the Home Secretary and then to an independent committee. The legislation allows for that. She asked whether the discretionary criteria are still appropriate, and we believe that they are. Counter-terrorism policy is, of course, kept permanently under review. She asked about the time scale; she will be aware that the Home Secretary is currently reviewing the most sensitive and controversial counter-terrorism and security powers and measures. It would be particularly inappropriate to speculate on the outcome of the review, as we are going to announce the findings shortly. I hope that the hon. Lady will be reassured by that.
	The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) raised a particular case. I take his point, but say simply in response that the Government have a wide range of counter-terrorism tools at their disposal, including asset freezing, exclusion and so forth. It would obviously be improper for me to comment on an individual case.

Chris Bryant: Would the Minister be prepared to meet me about this particular case to talk through what might be done regarding the people who murdered Sergei Magnitsky?

Damian Green: I would be happy to do so, although the hon. Gentleman might prefer to meet the Minister of State with responsibility for security and counter-terrorism. If he wants to meet me, however, it is always a pleasure. I would be happy to do so, as I said.
	One of the detailed points made by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) was that proscription does not work, but dialogue does. Of course we all want to move towards dialogue, but proscription does send out a strong message that we do not tolerate terrorism, and it deters terrorist groups from operating here. It should in no way prevent peaceful dialogue. The hon. Gentleman also made a point about the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam. The Tamil community in this country and elsewhere can express ideas it feels strongly about without supporting the LTTE.
	Having heard what I thought was a good debate, I strongly believe, as I think every hon. Member does, that the TTP should be added to the list of proscribed organisations under schedule 2 of the Terrorism Act 2000. I emphasise once more that the TTP has carried out a large number of mass casualty attacks within Pakistan against the Pakistani military and Government and against civilian targets. The number of the group's victims runs into the hundreds. It is important that we make the UK a hostile place for such terrorists and that we show our condemnation of this organisation's activities. The TTP has also attacked western interests within Pakistan and has stated its intention to carry out attacks in the west-a threat given credence by the attempted attack in Times square. It is now right to align the UK with the emerging international consensus condemning this group and its activities. I commend the order to the House.
	 Question put and agreed to,
	 Ordered,
	That the draft Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 17 January, be approved.

PETITION
	 — 
	Education Maintenance Allowance

Valerie Vaz: The petition is from the students of Walsall college.
	The petitioners oppose any reduction in weekly education maintenance allowance payments in this Parliament. They further oppose the loss of financial support to 14 to 19-year-olds from low-income families who wish to stay on in further education. They therefore request that the House of Commons urge the Government to take all possible steps to continue the payment of education maintenance allowance.
	There are 402 signatories to the petition in similar terms.
	 [Following is the full text of the petition: 
	 The Petition of students of Walsall College,
	 Declares that the Petitioners oppose any reduction in weekly education maintenance allowance payments in this Parliament and notes that the Petitioners further oppose the loss of financial support to 14 to 19-year-olds from low-income families who wish to stay on in further education.
	 The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take all possible steps to continue the payment of education maintenance allowance.
	 And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray. ]
	[P000878]

RAIL SERVICE (WEST ANGLIA)

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. -(Bill Wiggin.)

Alan Haselhurst: So long ago is it, Mr Speaker, that I last took part in a debate in the House-almost 15 years-that you may forgive me for feeling that this is something like a maiden speech, although I realise that it is not, in the technical sense. Let me say to my right hon. Friend the Minister that I hope my return to Back-Bench advocacy may yield a rewarding response this evening.
	I want to highlight the needs of all the people who make the 34.5 million journeys a year on the West Anglia railway line, which is part of the Greater Anglia franchise. The West Anglia line is really a cluster of lines, the main spine of which serves Cambridge from Liverpool Street as well as 14 other stations. Along that spine are 10 inner-London stations and spurs to Chingford, Enfield, Hertford and Stansted airport. I am grateful for the visible support of my hon. Friends the Members for Harlow (Robert Halfon) and for Enfield North (Nick de Bois), who are present, and I also pay tribute to those who, over the years, have worked together as a group to act as promoters of the need to improve the service on that line. They include my hon. Friends the Members for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk) and for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) and the hon. Member for Edmonton (Mr Love), all of whom have had similar problems in their constituencies in relation to this line. If it is not provocative of me to say so, we are all in this together.
	Let me give a little history. In 1977, when I started commuting from Audley End, which is one of the big commuter stations on the West Anglia line, the best journey time to Liverpool Street was 47 minutes, but today it is rarely possible to do that journey in under an hour and it usually takes more than an hour. I am not criticising the current train operator; in fact, National Express East Anglia can point to increased punctuality levels in what has become a more relaxed timetable. It is the extra demand on the line due to the growth in passenger numbers, notably caused by the introduction of the Stansted Express, that has been behind the slowing down of the journeys that our constituents undertake.
	I do, however, criticise successive Governments. The Government of my noble Friend, Baroness Thatcher, set the ball rolling so far as the expansion of Stansted is concerned, by agreeing to it being developed to a capacity of 15 million passengers per annum. The Government of Tony Blair decided that the M11 corridor should be a centre of expansion and also supported a second runway at Stansted with the capability of quadrupling the number of people using that airport.
	One might have anticipated some joined-up thinking. If more houses were to be built, whether in the inner or outer-London areas, and there was to be a third London airport, with possibly 80 million passengers per annum, surely to goodness attention should have been given to rail access to that airport. But no; there has been absolutely nothing doing in terms of train and track capacity. The only thing that can be shown is construction of the spur to Stansted airport.
	Inevitably, the result has been that overcrowding is worse, journey times are longer and even the Stansted Express has become less express, but of course fares have continued to rise. As my right hon. Friend the Minister knows, some relief on overcrowding is in prospect. I am grateful for the fact that the previous Government did, at last, agree that 120 new carriages should be provided. The only fly in the ointment, as far as that was concerned, is that they were destined to be used largely to satisfy passengers to and from Stansted airport. That would include some of my commuters, but substantially the extra seating capacity covered people travelling only occasionally on the train. Regular commuters from other stations on the line-typically, commuters from Audley End pay about £3,600 a year for a standard season ticket-would have to make do with the type 317s, the principal stock used on the line.
	"Tired" would be the politest word that could be applied to that type of train; it has a quixotic heating system and there are times when the doors stay closed, or, alternatively, stay open, neither attribute being particularly helpful to the running of a railway. During the recent cold snap, no fewer than 30 of the 60 four-car units that National Express had at its disposal for the West Anglia line were taken out of service as a result of problems in the traction motor caused by the snow.
	I recently discovered that another threat is looming. Apparently, EU regulations in the making will forbid trains having their lavatory waste emptied on to the line. That is a particularly odious situation, especially when seen at Liverpool street. To fit what are politely known as retention tanks to the 317 stock would cost about £3 million, which is hardly an incentive to keep the carriages in service much longer.
	The only way to improve journey times is of course to create more track. I am all in favour of a fast service to the airport. It ought to be possible to get to Stansted in 30 minutes, just as it is possible to get to Gatwick in 30 minutes. I am not against that in the slightest degree, but it cannot be done at the expense of improvements to services to stations in my constituency and beyond. It is important that a regular service be maintained for inner-London stations. The mix of fast and slow trains is impossible to achieve on a two-track system, so there has to be-at some point soon, one hopes-more track laid.
	Network Rail, in the rail utilisation strategy on which it is working, has options for four-tracking certain sections of the line. There are what I describe as minimal and maxi options. I want to make it absolutely clear that I do not think the thing is worth doing unless one has four-tracking from Coppermill junction, south of Tottenham Hale, as far as Broxbourne. That will enable proper separation of the different types of service. However, it is being contemplated only for the control period that covers 2014 to 2019, so the implementation of even the minimal option is some way ahead. For a long period of years, we shall still suffer the restrictions that currently exist. Even then, of course, any movement on four-tracking will require finance.
	With that tale of woe told, I now see the prospect-an opportunity-for improvement. The Department for Transport is working on a new franchise for Greater Anglia, which I believe is due to come into effect in 2013. I hope that the Government will construct a franchise that will place a requirement on the successful bidder to commit to new trains across the network, rather than just the few that we are going to get, which might all go to the Stansted Express. I also hope that there will be a commitment to helping with the implementation of some four-tracking along the stretch of line that I mentioned. If the Government do not want to go quite that far in the terms of the franchise, at the very least let the franchise encourage the provision of an incentive to the successful bidder to help to bring those things about.
	The length of the franchise is absolutely crucial if the train operator is to be encouraged to become a partner with Network Rail on improving the railway line. That has been my opinion for some time, but I note that it is also the opinion of the Association of Train Operating Companies. I was delighted that, by happy coincidence, my right hon. Friend made a statement today indicating that the Government believe in longer franchises. I do not know whether the franchise could be as long as 20 or 22 years, but it is a crucial point, because the longer the franchise, the better our chance of ensuring that there will be more investment soon for the benefit of our passengers. My right hon. Friend has the chance tonight-the omens seem propitious-to provide words of comfort to many long-suffering passengers by saying that a faster and better train service will be delivered soon, and foreseeably soon, for people using all the stations on the West Anglia network.

Theresa Villiers: I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on making a distinguished contribution on his return to debating from the Back Benches. I also congratulate him on securing a debate on such an important topic and for giving the House the opportunity to discuss the West Anglia rail line and the future for the franchise on the network.
	My right hon. Friend assiduously defends the interests of his commuting constituents, and I am grateful for his frequent representations and suggestions for ways to improve how our railways are run. His long-standing interest and expertise on transport matters no doubt aids him in being such an able and effective advocate for his constituents.
	Before I respond to the points made by my right hon. Friend, I shall update the House on the franchise arrangements on the West Anglia route. Last September, the Department for Transport issued a notice to National Express East Anglia exercising the Government's contractual right to extend the current franchise by a little over six months. A written statement to the House in December announced that a short management contract would be let for the Greater Anglia franchise, which would be in place from February 2012. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, it was expected that a long-term franchise would begin in July 2013. The competition to let the short-term interim contract started last week.
	The timetable has been put in place so that when we let the long-term Greater Anglia franchise, we can take on board the outcome of the recent consultation on rail franchising and the findings of the rail value for money study, which is chaired by Sir Roy McNulty. The study is aimed at reducing the costs of running the railways, thus making it easier to deliver the kind of improvements that my right hon. Friend has passionately called for in the debate.
	Sir Roy McNulty's work to date indicates that better alignment of incentives between Network Rail and train operators is a vital way to get costs down on the railways. We believe that the Greater Anglia franchise is a promising candidate for such a reform because it is less complex and more self-contained than some other lines, and there is already some alignment between the area covered by the franchise and Network Rail's internal regional structures.
	My right hon. Friend clearly highlighted the crowding problems on the lines serving his constituency and his general concern about the quality of the rolling stock that his constituents use every day. The Government are funding increased capacity on the National Express East Anglia franchise. One hundred and twenty new carriages will enter service over the next few months, with the first of the new rolling stock in operation from March. Although, as we have heard, those will be deployed primarily on the Stansted Express route, it is worth noting that during the peaks, that line serves commuters as well as airport passengers. I also note that my right hon. Friend mentioned his concerns about the growth of Stansted and the sufficiency of the supporting infrastructure.

Robert Halfon: I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way, and heartily endorse the comments of my right hon. Friend and constituency neighbour the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst). I welcome the Government's plans to invest in improving the rolling stock. Obviously, hard-pressed Harlow commuters who are crushed every day, particularly in the rush hours, would welcome any signal that the Government can accelerate the plans to improve the rolling stock.

Theresa Villiers: I am grateful for my hon. Friend's intervention. As I said, the rolling stock is due to come into service pretty soon-in the next few months in the case of the Stansted Express. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made an announcement about the provision of rolling stock elsewhere on the national rail network. Negotiations are under way with various train operators about those additional carriages.
	My right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden will appreciate that, had the previous Government's misguided plans for a second runway at Stansted gone ahead, it would have placed even more pressure on the surrounding infrastructure. That is one of the many reasons why the coalition has firmly ruled out a second runway.
	As my right hon. Friend knows, National Express has also decided to operate some of the new units, which were originally destined for the Stansted Express, on Cambridge services. I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend's successful lobbying on that, because I am sure that it played an important part in the decision to deploy some of the new rolling stock carriages on Cambridge services. The introduction of new units on the Stansted Express and Cambridge services will, in turn, free up carriages that will be used to strengthen services across the Anglia network.
	On 12 December National Express East Anglia introduced a new timetable, which saw 68 additional carriages brought into service, providing more than 4,000 additional seats for passengers during peak times. In addition, I can confirm that my officials are in discussion with National Express East Anglia to determine whether some Cambridge services can be speeded up from December 2011.
	My right hon. Friend expressed his concerns about the relative speed of services. The change in times is largely due to the fact that the trains are stopping at more stations to meet the increasing demand from passengers at different locations. That is part of the reason for the change in journey times that he highlighted.
	My right hon. Friend also set out his grave concerns about the poor performance of National Express East Anglia rolling stock during the sub-zero temperatures in November and December. Unfortunately, he is correct that the type of rolling stock operated on the West Anglia route has problems during the kind of severe weather that we experienced before Christmas. I am afraid that that has also been apparent with other train operators who use the same kind of vehicles.
	Problems include snow ingress into traction motors and freezing door mechanisms. In some instances, the Kilfrost used to treat platforms affected door runners, stopping doors from closing. Those problems were compounded by issues with Network Rail's infrastructure, including freezing points and icicles forming under bridges and interfering with overhead lines.
	My officials met National Express East Anglia to discuss what actions they had taken to mitigate the effects of the extreme weather. Those include applying antifreeze to doors and deploying additional staff at stations along the route to try to deal with problems as they arise. Modifications to the traction motors are being investigated, and other mitigating actions are being urgently considered by the train operators in preparation for any recurrence of severe weather. Throughout the crisis, officials were in constant touch with the rail industry. The Secretary of State and I were in contact with the senior management of Network Rail and of a number of different train operators. Although disruption is inevitable with extreme weather conditions, we need to ensure that transport operators work as hard as they can to secure the best service deliverable in the circumstances.
	In December, the Secretary of State asked David Quarmby to conduct an urgent audit of transport operators' performance in England and their compliance with the recommendations that he made earlier in the year on winter resilience. The audit emphasised the importance of improving the information given to passengers in the event of disruption, and concluded that the rail industry is rather over-dependent on electronic provision of information. The Department for Transport expects transport operators to act on David Quarmby's report.
	As demand on the West Anglia route increases, changes will need to be made to the way in which services are delivered. Our response will depend on the extent of demand growth and, of course, on affordability. When competition is under way for the long Anglia franchise, starting in 2013, we will run a consultation to hear from local stakeholders what their priorities are for the rail network. I do not propose pre-empting that competition, but my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden urges bidders to consider putting forward proposals for new rolling stock on the line. Bidders may well want to make such proposals. I am sure that they will be interested in hearing from my right hon. Friend and other MPs what local people's priorities are for the much needed improvements to the railways. Bidders for the longer franchise will also need to evaluate likely growth and passenger demand over the coming years.
	We believe that our new approach to rail franchising, which my right hon. Friend mentioned, with longer and less prescriptive franchises, will incentivise train operators to invest in improved services, and better stations and rolling stock, as he suggests they should. We will require bidders to take into account stakeholder aspirations in the improvements that they propose making to passenger services under the Greater Anglia franchise. We will need to be confident that those competing for the franchise have fully understood which improvements matter most to the communities served by the line. We also want them to generate ideas on how to deliver those improvements in an affordable way.
	My right hon. Friend hinted at the range of upgrades to the Anglia network that have been discussed. He felt that there was a need for additional tracks to deal with the overcrowding problem and to improve services. Network Rail's route utilisation strategy recommended that the number of tracks on the route between Tottenham Hale and Broxbourne be increased from two to four, which is what my right hon. Friend called for. However, there may be alternatives that address the issues that the project is designed to solve, such as passing places on the line. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, there are mini and maxi options. The relative cost of all the options would have to be carefully assessed. As he acknowledged, no funding has yet been committed for delivering Anglia route utilisation projects beyond 2014, but our goal is to improve services for passengers, and that may well include infrastructure works in the next railway control period. I am sure that he will agree that decisions will have to be based on affordability, given the crisis in the public finances that we inherited from our predecessors.
	A key goal in letting the Anglia franchise that commences in 2013 is to generate ideas for improving services, and to listen to the representations of people such as my right hon. Friend, who know well the concerns of their commuting constituents. The coalition's franchise reforms, announced today in a written ministerial statement, are designed to ensure that the rail industry performs more efficiently and invests more in the kind of improvements highlighted by my right hon. Friend this evening.
	We believe that our predecessors tried to exert too much control from Whitehall through lengthy and detailed specifications and complex management regimes. On too many issues they attempted to second-guess the professionals whose job it is to run train services. A significant downside of this command-and-control approach is that it provides the private sector with only limited incentives to invest in the facilities and improvements that passengers want. It also leaves the private sector with little scope to deploy innovation and enterprise in responding to passenger concerns.
	That is why we have proposed a new approach, which chimes in with much of the appeal that my right hon. Friend made this evening. We will set demanding outcomes for the rail industry to achieve, but we will give the industry more flexibility and freedom in deciding how best to deliver those outcomes for passengers. We intend to reduce the involvement of the Government in the way services are configured, while continuing to mandate the provision of core levels of service.
	I firmly believe that I can assure my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) that longer franchises will provide a stronger incentive for private sector investment in rolling stock, in stations and even potentially in broader infrastructure improvements. They will also make it easier for operators to invest in the long-term relationships that are so crucial for delivering reliable services and a successful railway-relationships with the work force, Network Rail, local authorities and, of course, passengers. As well as forming part of our strategy for reforming the franchise system, strengthening these pivotal relationships will be part of the valuable work being done under the auspices of the McNulty review to reduce the cost of running the railways for the benefit of both groups that fund them, taxpayers and fare payers.
	 Question put and agreed to.
	 House adjourned.